Combat ??>> Flanking

[DMhavok]

Combat Question>

If a character is wielding a ranged weapon (say two hand crossbows) do they treaten each square around as they could essentially perform a melee attack by striking with the but of the crossbow handle or even kick an adajacent foe.

For example if player A is wielding a melee weapon and player B is wielding a ranged weapon and they are in flanking position, would player A gain the bonus for flanking?

I give this example because this is what started the discussion between my players and I.

Or is this one of those DM discressions things....

 

[Coredump]

ranged weapons cannot threaten.

And neither does a kick/punch unless you are a monk (or have the appropriate feat)

So no, it would not cause flanking.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Coredump is correct. You cannot threaten with a ranged weapon, and unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike, you don't threaten with unarmed attacks.

 

[Pielorinho]

If you're wearing gauntlets or if you have natural weapons, don't you threaten with those even when wielding a ranged weapon?

Daniel

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A related question which came up in a game some time ago:

My DM provided rules for using ranged weapons as improvised melee weapons - a light crossbow did d4 bludgeoning (basically a club), and any damage done to the target above the crossbow's hardness (5, I think, standard for wood) was also applied to the crossbow. Therefore, it was possible to break your crossbow over something's head.

In one particular round, I took a shot with my light crossbow, and then had an opponent run right past me, which would normally provoke an AoO. I thought that, given the existence of crossbows as improvised melee weapons, I should be allowed an AoO - the DM ruled "No, because it's an improvised weapon for which you don't have the profiency feat," I shrugged, and we moved on.

For future reference:

1. Is it necessary to be proficient in a weapon to threaten a square?

2. Do improvised weapons have a special limitation on which squares they threaten?

3. If I had not previously shot my crossbow that round, should I have received an AoO?

4. If I had been holding a throwing dagger, would I have received an AoO?

5. Should I have gotten an AoO regardless?

My initial guesses are:

1. No. You threaten regardless of proficiency.
2. No, but I don't know of any rules specifically dealing with improvised weapons.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Yes.

I'd be interested in seeing the feedback, however, as it will doubly pertain to the OP's question.

EDIT:

To add, here's the relavent SRD entry on Improvised weapons:

Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

My initial guesses are:

1. No. You threaten regardless of proficiency.
2. No, but I don't know of any rules specifically dealing with improvised weapons.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Yes.

I agree with all except #5. Thing is, you're not supposed to be able to threaten with a missile weapon, so you're automatically into house-rule territory here. However, there is a precedent: the shield bash. I would rule that, much in the way that you can't bash with a shield and use it for defense in the same round, you cannot aim and fire a crossbow and smack someone with it in the same round. It's either a melee weapon this round or it's a missile weapon. If you hadn't fired it already, fine, but you're too busy shooting the darn thing to be able to also swing it at some shmoe. The crossbow should not count as an improvised weapon unless you decide to use it as such for the entire round.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

If you're wearing gauntlets or if you have natural weapons, don't you threaten with those even when wielding a ranged weapon?

Not if you are using them to wield the ranged weapon. So if you also possess a bite attack, then you'd threaten with it even while firing a longbow. Or if you had armor spikes, (their cheese never ends, it seems.) But gauntlets, no. You're using those hands to fire the longbow.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

1. Is it necessary to be proficient in a weapon to threaten a square?

No. But it is necessary to have the weapon available for the full round.

2. Do improvised weapons have a special limitation on which squares they threaten?

No.

3. If I had not previously shot my crossbow that round, should I have received an AoO?

Yes, if you wanted to use your crossbow as an improvised weapon. Since you weren't firing the crossbow, you could have been swinging it around you at foes entering your threatened area, and thus managed a lucky melee hit.

4. If I had been holding a throwing dagger, would I have received an AoO?

Yes.

5. Should I have gotten an AoO regardless?

You mean, even though you fired your crossbow in the round? No.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

In regards to a throwing dagger:

Yes.

In regards to a previously shot crossbow:

No.

So, that seems to be the general consensus; well, the general consensus of the two people who have spoken up.

OK...

Let's say I start the round holding a throwing dagger, and throw it at an opponent. I then use my remaining move action to draw another.

Now, a different opponnent runs past me.

AoO?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

AoO?

Yes. You're comparing a Thrown Weapon to a Ranged Weapon. They aren't exactly the same, as demonstrated here.