Combat ??>> Flanking

[heggland]

'Caffein' is also an accepted spelling.

Accepted by whom?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Accepted by whom?

Link

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus]

Can I attack with a Two-Handed sword, drop it as a free action, pull out 2 short swords as a free action w/ Quickdraw, then get 2 more attacks? (Assuming a BAB of +6/+1)???

Can I fire a Longbow (Standard), drop it (free action), pick it back up (move-equiv) and declare I am using it as an improvised weapon for the rest of the round?

If I had a BAB of +6/+1, could I fire a Longbow, drop it, Quickdraw a new Longbow, attack with it in melee as an improvised weapon (as my second attack)? Certainly this works with throwing Daggers and Quickdraw (quickdrawing inbetween attacks), so why not other weapons?

Could I use my Longbow as an improved weapon, attack in melee with it, take a 5' step back, then fire it as a ranged weapon for my last attack?

 

[Pielorinho]

Not if you are using them to wield the ranged weapon. So if you also possess a bite attack, then you'd threaten with it even while firing a longbow. Or if you had armor spikes, (their cheese never ends, it seems.) But gauntlets, no. You're using those hands to fire the longbow.

I believe you can switch from holding it one-handed to holding it two-handed as a free action, can't you? This would free up one hand to punch people with.

(This makes sense from a cinematic perspective: the act of firing an arrow involves letting go of the arrow with one hand, leaving that hand free. One hand on a crossbow is just there to steady it; you can remove that hand without difficulty.)

Daniel

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Arkhandus said:

Crossbows can be used for improvised bashing in melee, but are technically ranged weapons by default. Ranged weapons cannot threaten an area.

Granted, that's what the rules say.

However, as was clarified before, you don't need to be proficient in a melee weapon to threaten an area with it. Thus, a human warrior armed with a chair (improvised weapon) threatens the same area as a human warrior armed with a longsword (non-improvised weapon). The first gentleman merely has a -4 on his attack roll because, as you point out, it's not really well-balanced, crafted, etc., for battle.

Now, the problem does not arise until someone - in this case, the DM - says, "Here's a new entry for the melee weapon table:

Crossbow, Light: Medium, Bashing, 1d4, 20 x2, Hardness 5, Hit Points 3.
These statistics reflect this weapon's use as a melee weapon. Proficiency
with this weapon does not apply when using it as a melee weapon, so a -4
attack penalty applies. Individuals may take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency
to use this weapon as a melee weapon to eliminate the non-proficiency
penalty. If the amount of melee damage inflicted by the weapon exceeds its
hardness rating, the weapon suffers damage equal to the excess."

For those wondering how such a strange situation occurred, our party crashed a frogman gathering on a lower-level of an EVIL TEMPLE (TM) that had been sunk into the swamp ages ago. We stumbled upon what appeared to be a meeting hall and, as our particular group was wont to do (I think we had three barbarians in the party) charged.

My wizard - the only one with an Int score higher than 12 - walked into the door and took a shot at one of the milling frogmen, probably downing it (I can't recall).

In panic and confusion the frogmen scattered, and a few ran past me to flee through the door behind me. Since the DM had just sent out the "Crossbow as Improvised Melee Weapon" guidelines, I asked to make an AoO on the fleeing frogman, with the results previously discussed. As I lacked a decent BAB, a positive Strength bonus, and proficiency with the weapon in question, I didn't think my chances of scoring a hit - or of exceeding the weapon's hardness should I successfully hit - were enough to worry about. It seemed like an opportune time to try out the new rules.

And there was much rejection.

Anyway, the discussion is certainly interesting.

EDIT: To add:

Basically, my problem with the ruling - and with the responses given on this board - is the following:

If I had shot my crossbow, dropped it, and pulled a dagger (proficient), I'd get an AoO.

If I had shot my crossbow, dropped it, and pulled a longsword (not proficient), I'd get an AoO.

If I had shot my crossbow, dropped it, and pulled a bust of Beethoven (as an improvised weapon), I'd get an AoO.

If I had shot my crossbow, dropped it, and pulled a ladder (as an improvised weapon), I'd get an AoO - and probably reach!

If I had shot my crossbow, dropped it, and pulled a crossbow-shaped piece of wood (as an improvised weapon), I'd get an AoO.

Since I didn't drop my crossbow, I don't get an AoO, even though it's still an improvised weapon.

So, that's basically the point at which I disagree.

Also, the rules allow you to mix melee and ranged attacks as part of your iterative attacks. Imagine a fighter with 3 attacks per round and a dagger in hand. He can stab with his dagger as his first attack, throw it as his second, quickdraw a sword, and slash with that as his third attack - provided he only takes a 5' step during that period.

Anyway, like I said, great discussion. Thanks!

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Oye.. House Rules

RigaMortis:
You can make 2 attacks on a full round attack. If you are weilding a light weapon in your off hand and take a penalty, you can make 3 attacks. Use of TWF, or any other tactic that applies a penalty to all attacks must be made prior to the first attack. So, assuming you could weild your 2hander in one hand in order to utilize TWF....

Use of a ranged weapon as a melee weapon is a house rule... Your next question would be why bother with the whole dropping/picking up. See below.


The main difference between throwing something and firing something is the violence of action. With ranged, read 'bow', you want to be as still as possible. With thrown, you want a violent sharp movement.. very similar to a sword stroke. It takes some time to switch between movement types, and in the abstract of D20 this is set at about 6 seconds.. or until the next turn.

End result, shy of house rules, use of ranged weaponry in combat means you cannot take melee action for the duration of the round.

Now, if I were to house rule this, it would look like:

Ranged weapons can be used as improvised melee weapons. Any damage dealt is also dealt to the weapon.

You may accept a -4 penalty to all attacks in the round to be able to fire a ranged weapon and retain the ability to threaten squares within reach, either with the ranged weapon as an improvised weapon or with a quickdrawn melee weapon. When taking this penalty, you may also change between ranged and melee attacks forms once between iterative attacks.
This penalty lasts until the start of your next round.

Of course, this would be coupled with a feat that would allow a character to overcome this penalty, allowing for the weird concept of a fighter who wades into combat thwacking opponents with the tip of his metal bow.