Combat vs. Role-playing

[Remathilis]

One of the big concerns I've seen bandied about (mostly by gnay-sayers) is that D&D/4e (and 3e before it) moved the game off "role-playing" and toward "videogame/mmorpg/hacker/anime/boardgame" (or a game that focuses on combat). This leads me to a couple questions...

1.) Why are the two mutually exclusive? Why can a game that focuses on combat and dungeons NOT have role-playing?
2.) What SHOULD the game do to move toward being more role-playing oriented IN THE RULES (no campaign suggestions, just how should the RULES emphasize rping?

I'm interested to hear exactly how D&D could emphasize role-playing in the rules and what effect that would have on the massive amount of combat rules?

 

[Insight]

Here's an inherent problem with D&D with 3.x and most likely with 4e as well. The game tries to emulate everything you can possibly do. While this is nice from a play balance point of view, being able to make rolls for just about every situation or challenge means it's easier to do so, and thus, people are more likely to do so.

For example, with the interaction skills, such as Bluff and Diplomacy in 3.x, it's far easier to just make a roll than to roleplay it out. Not only that, even if you do roleplay it out, some DMs make you roll anyway, so what's the point of doing the roleplaying? Some DMs will give a bonus to an interaction roll for good roleplaying, and that's a good middle ground.

You can roleplay out of combat and you can even roleplay IN combat! But you aren't forced to roleplay, and I think that's a good thing. Some people are better at the whole roleplaying part of the game, and I'm not sure it's a good idea to require something in which some players have an inherent advantage over others.

There's nothing in the rules that prevents you from roleplaying your character through every situation, combat or not. However, there's also nothing requiring you to roleplay. Add to that the fact that the vast majority of abilities that exist in the same are for the expressed purpose of engaging in combat. I think that's why people sometimes want to contravert combat with roleplaying (and vice versa).

One thing that can help encourage roleplaying is to change the XP reward model. Switching from a strictly kill based XP system to a more task/accomplishment based XP system, while adding optional components for ad-hoc roleplaying awards, I think that would be something you could do in the rules to encourage more roleplaying without strictly requiring it.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Have actual rules in the DMG laying out how to create a non-combat problem, the various ways in which it could be solved, and the appropriate rewards - and make the rewards equivalent to the rewards which can be earned in combat.

Create a lot more non-combat abilities.

Although, to be honest, if I wanted a game with less combat rules I would just play something else. D&D has always been built around the default assumption that the adventureres are questing to rid the land of evil - and that normally has a base assumption that fighting it and killing it is the way to go.

 

[HeinorNY]

One of the big concerns I've seen bandied about (mostly by gnay-sayers) is that D&D/4e (and 3e before it) moved the game off "role-playing" and toward "videogame/mmorpg/hacker/anime/boardgame" (or a game that focuses on combat).

Wasn't D&D almost a wargame in its begginings? Was it ever really focused on RP?

I'm interested to hear exactly how D&D could emphasize role-playing in the rules and what effect that would have on the massive amount of combat rules?

Describe you attack and gain +1 to hit.


D&D doesn't need rules for that. If players think it's funny to RP, they'll do it, there is nothing in the book preventing people from that.
That's the kind of situation, IMO, that adding rules would restrict the game, because some players just don't like to roleplay.
If there are such rules and players just don't use them, they will not be playing the game the way it was expected to be played, and this sucks.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Wasn't D&D almost a wargame in its begginings? Was it ever really focused on RP?

Absolutely.

As Insight mentions above, in the absence of rules covering stuff like looking for traps, climbing over ledges and stuff, the players would 'role-play' (i.e. describe) what they wanted to do and the DM adjudicated it.

More rules decreases this 'role-play' space, although it does open up the possibility for people to play characters with greater social skills than they possess themselves, which can be a good thing IMO.

There is still a lot of room for 'general role play' i.e. talking in character with NPCs and between PCs anyway.

Cheers

 

[Sadrik]

Being almost forced to play on a battle map. Other lighter games don't have that stipulation. And from my experience the lighter the game the more players are able to describe what they do rather than have the rules describe what they do.

So there you have it, thats why.

 

[Aloïsius]

2.) What SHOULD the game do to move toward being more role-playing oriented IN THE RULES (no campaign suggestions, just how should the RULES emphasize rping?

Personal example pet peave.
The way magical healing works in 3e (and probably in 4e) leads to very non-roleplaying situation. Slower healing and less raise dead would lead to less "kick in the door" style of play.

And I would like to see dying PC (-1 or so hit point) to remain concious, so that they can speak/curse/try something heroic while they are agonizing rather than just being removed from the fight.

 

[Zweischneid]

One of the big concerns I've seen bandied about (mostly by gnay-sayers) is that D&D/4e (and 3e before it) moved the game off "role-playing" and toward "videogame/mmorpg/hacker/anime/boardgame" (or a game that focuses on combat). This leads me to a couple questions...

1.) Why are the two mutually exclusive? Why can a game that focuses on combat and dungeons NOT have role-playing?
2.) What SHOULD the game do to move toward being more role-playing oriented IN THE RULES (no campaign suggestions, just how should the RULES emphasize rping?

I'm interested to hear exactly how D&D could emphasize role-playing in the rules and what effect that would have on the massive amount of combat rules?

Well, for one, I think D&D has both wargame roots (the really old stuff) and, in its 3rd Ed. version was part of backlash against the roleplaying-heavy games of the 90 when White Wolf & Co. ruled the industry. So trying to take D&D where it wasn't intended to go and/or doesn't want to go might not be a good idea.

If you want rules to emphasize rping, change the experience system from giving reward for fighting (i.e. per monster) to a system rewarding good roleplaying (staying in-character, playing the Concept, playing in-line with your alignment (which them could be more elaborate, for example using a WW-like morality system, etc..., etc..), being descriptive in your actions, etc.., etc..)

And btw,.. as has been noted before.., there isn't anything quite as "videogamy" as giving out xp for slaying monsters.. something MMOG-haters should consider

 

[Sadrik]

An example of relegating to a die role rather than forcing the player to describe the action. Search skill. Back in the day when a player wanted to search it was only limited to the rogue unless it was a secret door (bad game design) but the rogue had to describe where he was searching. "I search the statue". Now it is, "I search this square". It is broadening it so that it does not matter what is on the square- anyway rulesy approach vs. not rulesy approach.

 

[xechnao]

D&D rules are about combat on a board which represents a limited space (see dungeon room). Role playing OTOH reaches beyond this limit and it is there that it tries to impose game balance.

Thus in role playing, character scope isn't to be balanced for the limited room space that d&d deals with but to be balanced for bigger space, that you can't depict on a board. Eventually, role playing rules that want to grasp an advanced tactical level will not only depend to the setting but they will be more as one and the same.

As you see d&d does not have tools to help you with that. The only tool that ever had was alignment but this IMHO was worse than nothing.