Combats in 3.5/4E vs older editions

[Pbartender]

From my personal perspective, I'll reiterate some of what's been said above...

I've found 4E is much, much easier to prepare than 3rd Edition. Also, monsters and their abilities are much easier to keep track of during a combat... Partially due to the statblock format, and partially because of the typically fewer but unique powers monsters get.

In general, combats in 4E don't take any more or less time than a 3E combat, but... because most of the available powers provide additional benefits other than simply dealing damage, combat is more interesting. It tends to make for a more dynamic combat that feels shorter because the action is interesting, even though the combat doesn't actually take less time.

With properly used minions, large-scale combats are a breeze. Two weeks ago, I had my PCs swarmed by about 3 dozen kobold minions. The kobolds caught the scouting Rogue out ahead of the party and ganged up on him. They almost took him down by sheer numbers, before the rest of the party came to the rescue, killed half and drove the rest off. In-game, the combat lasted maybe four rounds. Out-of-game, it took no more than 15 minutes.

 

[Pbartender]

And, there was a cleave system as well, though I forget it now (I think you could keep going against creatures below 1 HD?)

If I remember right, it was a perk of being a Fighter, and it was a little more like Whirlwind Attack... you'd get to make one attack against every creature of less than 1HD you could reach.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

A lot of good advice so far, considering your issues you may want to try doing E6, or E8, or wherever you think the problems tend to start. (In short: cut off progession at the indicated level, and instead the PCs get feats every so many xp, with expanded feat options to get 1/day casting of a spell of the next spell level, class features they just barely missed getting due to level cutoff, etc...)

If you really are nostalgic of 2E, maybe you should try and get your group to try it out again for a few sessions. Then at least you'll know if you really do like the older systems better or it was just nostalga.

Beyond that, I liked the examples given to speed up casting a spell, with simultaneous rolling and the player giving DC info from the start. I do that. While it is hard to run a large skirmish (10+ NPCs against the party, as an arbitrary definition) and I'd certainly never want the ~100 you had in the 2E game, it is possible to speed things up a bit. For one thing, surely some of the monsters will act in consecutive initiative order, so it helps if you stick to groups of mostly the same type, or at least o more than 2-3 different kinds of monster. It also helps if you split their attacks up in such a way that it can be resolved simultaneously, so that the success/failure of one monster's actions don't impact the next one's in line.

So... you have 8 lizardfolk and 3 minotaurs facing the party, for example. Initiative gives something like (PC 1-2, Lizard 1-4, PC 3, Minotaur 1, PC 4, Lizard 5-6, Minotaur 2-3, PC 5, Lizard 7-8). Each block of same NPCs can have their d20 rolls made simulataneously and with the same exact bonuses -- the first 4 lizardfolk can all fire bows, could be at the same or a different PC, bow shots are unlikely to kill anyway; Minotaur 1 swipes at the PC that charged him before he could gore (curses!); by now lizard 5-6 may be in melee with PCs who singled out foes that hadn't acted yet to try and kill them, o they do the same melee routine to a different PC; at the same time you roll for that, add in two more as the minotaurs charge (into flank, if possible); the last two lizard folk either join the melee, moving around into a flank instead of straight-line charging, or take bow shots at the PC casters still out of melee, again simultaneously.



In any case, if you mostly like the 3E rules system but don't like how complicated it gets or dealing with double digit levels, it's probably best to just stick with what you like and cut out or limit what you don't.

 

[Obryn]

If I remember right, it was a perk of being a Fighter, and it was a little more like Whirlwind Attack... you'd get to make one attack against every creature of less than 1HD you could reach.

It is a Fighter-only perk (as in, Paladins and Rangers don't get it.)

A Fighter in 1e can make 1 attack per character level against foes who have less than 1 HD, max of one attack per foe.

So, a 9th-level fighter surrounded by kobolds could attack all 9 of 'em.

-O

 

[DandD]

It is a Fighter-only perk (as in, Paladins and Rangers don't get it.)

A Fighter in 1e can make 1 attack per character level against foes who have less than 1 HD, max of one attack per foe.

So, a 9th-level fighter surrounded by kobolds could attack all 9 of 'em.

-O

I'd expect not less. After all, a combat round back then was 1 minutes, not just 6 seconds, like in 3rd and 4th.

Of course, then again, you don't fight level 1 lowly monsters in 3rd edition anymore, once you're high-level.

 

[Pbartender]

It is a Fighter-only perk (as in, Paladins and Rangers don't get it.)

A Fighter in 1e can make 1 attack per character level against foes who have less than 1 HD, max of one attack per foe.

So, a 9th-level fighter surrounded by kobolds could attack all 9 of 'em.

-O

I knew it was something like that, but didn't have those books handy.

Thanks Obryn.

 

[Corathon]

I can't really speak to the OP's statement, but I disagree that pre-3E editions fell apart around level 10.

The highest-level PC in my 1E campaign is 14th, and the game still seems to work fine, nor is it that difficult to challenge the PCs.

 

[Dragonbait]

I can't really speak to the OP's statement, but I disagree that pre-3E editions fell apart around level 10.

The highest-level PC in my 1E campaign is 14th, and the game still seems to work fine, nor is it that difficult to challenge the PCs.

I was just regurgitating info that had been declared by WoTC and people on the MBs I visited about 1E/2E when 3E was coming out in regards to that.

If the game is running fine past level 10, then it sounds like you and your DM have a good grasp of the system.. Or a lot of house rules that smooth over the odd bits of rules (?)

 

[TerraDave]

Corathon...hmm...do you have any theives in the party, any demihumans (you may see what I am getting at, but I am genuinely curious)?

 

[Jack99]

It is a Fighter-only perk (as in, Paladins and Rangers don't get it.)

A Fighter in 1e can make 1 attack per character level against foes who have less than 1 HD, max of one attack per foe.

So, a 9th-level fighter surrounded by kobolds could attack all 9 of 'em.

-O

It's called sweeping!