Come and (Don't) Get It?

[keterys]

Err, yeah - you argued it was doing something other powers don't... and that's not true. If you're arguing it's too good, I hardly think it's broken, but I do think it's better than all of the other options so I'd agree that it's overpowered compared to the baseline. I'm less sure that's true if we open it up to all the other classes, but then I'm not sure it's true if I look at, say, level 1 Thunder of Judgment

Part of me would probably be okay if some of those other fighter encounter powers went up in power to its level, but that's neither here nor there.

I wouldn't find it all amiss to see a level 6 paladin utility power, say, that did the automatic pull 2 in close burst 3.

 

[KarinsDad]

Err, yeah - you argued it was doing something other powers don't... and that's not true.

It's mostly true.

None of your examples illustrated a power that both moves and damages a bunch of foes in a burst 3 area without doing so to allies and where the move occurs without a to hit roll. Not just from the Fighter's list, but from anyone's list.

You showed a few powers that sort of, kind of, maybe, had a few of these traits, but nothing that even came close to a close burst 3 enemy only move them without a roll, damage them with a roll.


There's a reason that virtually everyone who plays a Fighter takes that power. Any power or feat or item or paragon path that is taken more than 50% of the time due to power reasons is overbalanced. I suspect that Come and Get It is easily taken by 75% or more of all players of Fighters. What about the other 17 powers (15 if one were to drop Dragon)?

Maybe I'll put up a poll.

 

[Amaroq]

This is pretty much how I feel.

Are there any fighters out there that choose a different level 7 power?

Yeah. Mine.

Partly because I had trouble "liking" Come and Get It from a fluff perspective, and partly because we're playing a story not a tabletop wargame.

The power-gamer in me argues passionately to retrain to it every single time I level up , but I've managed to resist so far (now Level 14).

In its place I have a Warlord power that lets the party crit the target on an 18+ for one round, which is very handy against Elites and Solos.

 

[keterys]

It's mostly true.

None of your examples illustrated a power that both moves and damages a bunch of foes in a burst 3 area without doing so to allies and where the move occurs without a to hit roll. Not just from the Fighter's list, but from anyone's list.

Now you're splitting some mighty fine hairs. Reaping Strike lets you deal damage on a miss, as an at-will. I mean, sure, other powers might let you deal automatic damage whether you hit or miss, or let you make two attack rolls, or make an attack with higher accuracy. But as at-wills they don't do damage on a miss. Broken!

I brought up a list of L7 encounter powers, skimmed the first page of several, and listed ones that had automatic effects that you could do without hitting the target you were doing them on. You can change your argument if you want, but you're essentially changing it from "This is cheesy" or "This doesn't fit martial" to "This is overpowered". And if so, sure, that's fine. Or maybe you think both, and your arguments were overlapping. Which is, again, fine, and I'd encourage you to separate out the arguments for clarity.

There's a reason that virtually everyone who plays a Fighter takes that power.

Two reasons.
1) It's awesome, probably too much so
2) Most of the other options suck or don't apply due to build limitations

 

[Victim]

Characters reliant on self heals and MC feat dailies might be hesitant regarding Come and Get It, since they tend to benefit less from heavily concentrating fire on the defender. In that case, something with a defensive emphasis might be more useful. Trip Up seems pretty good for polearm gambit types.

I'd argue that fighter defending in full/large groups is built around the ability to suck in enemies, mark them all, and get OA bonuses if they try to move away. That's why fighters get the exact same power as Come and Get It again at level 23, only with straightforward upgrades. When the class ability marks everyone you attack, the design is putting a premium on a power that lets you attack multiple guys.

I think that Call of Challenge (Paladin U2, DP) is the closest thing to Come and Get It. It marks everything in a close burst 3. There's no attack and forced movement, but it is a utility power. Since Sanction can punish multiple times per round, its group control seems equivalent despite the lack of forced movement - Combat Challenge is only once per round, so one shift/attack frees the other enemies shift+charge away without additional attacks. Generally, most monsters will be forced to move and attack you, or take automatic damage.

Personally, I think that defenders without a way to handle groups like Come and Get It or Call of Challenge have problems - only defending against 1 guy isn't very helpful in 5 on 5. Why assume that the enemies and/or environment are going to cooperate with your plan? If you're not fighting in doorways and narrow halls, then I think a defender needs a sort of area control. Fighters have CaGI. Paladins have a number sanctioning bursts, and can heal allies damaged by monsters that escape their net, Warden powers often create zones of anti-shifting or difficult terrain, Battleminds have Lightning Rush, and swordmages tend to mark 1, and then melee someone else. Defenders need a bigger 'space' on the battlefield.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

One thing that seems to be forgotten here is that Come and Get It is a very particular type of forced movement. Most of those forced movement powers that require some sort of a roll allow you do something like, say, push 3, or slide 1, etc.. Basically, you have some choice in where the enemy goes (think about a Wizard using Thunderwave to get enemies away from him). This increases the utility of that forced movement compared to Come and Get It, because now you have a lot of tactical options in how to use that movement and where to place enemies.

Come and Get It, on the other hand, works in one direction: towards the Fighter (also key it only works if the enemy will end up adjacent to the Fighter). If the Fighter pulls in 8 enemies and doesn't manage to kill any with the attack, then guess what? The Fighter just surrounded himself with 8 enemies. This means that the Fighter is now unable to move (all adjacent squares are occupied by enemies) and he is being flanked by 8 enemies. This is not what you would call a "good" situation tactically, and it gives the DM plenty of ways to lay the hurt on the Fighter here. Basically, Come and Get It's forced movement can often result in situations where the Fighter is surrounded by enemies who have naturally been set up into flanking positions. Sure, this sets him up to use stuff like an auto-damage stance or Sweeping Blow...but it also sets the monsters up for flanking bonuses all around and a simple shift+charge will get them out of the whole situation (the Fighter can only punish the first person to shift, the rest have a free pass...although they're probably now marked, which does mean they're at a -2 to attack) if need be.

Basically, while Come and Get It is an excellent power and a lot of Fighters use it, but I think some of you are looking at it without really thinking about the tactical situation. You can't compare it directly to most forced movement powers because it doesn't work like most of them. Yes, it gives a form of battlefield control, but it doesn't allow for the fine grained sort of movement control that a true controller has. It can't be used defensively at all (unless you have some kind of power where you actually become stronger the more times you're flanked) and even it's offensive use is a bit of a gamble by basically saying "Everyone attack me!!!!".

Now, there's a good explanation for why so many Fighters take this power. Basically, it's cool...just the whole idea of a massive whirlwind style, vacu-suck attack that pulls all these guys to you is really awesome. Add to that the fact that I think a lot of Fighters share a similar attitude about taking on impossible odds to protect the party, which Come and Get It does by sucking practically everyone is a 3x3 area directly to you, and it's just a natural fit. The power practically dares you to use it take on as many guys as possible, and a lot of Fighters (myself included) like that feeling.