Come and (Don't) Get It?

[Starfox]

Hey, what a fantastic idea! We could do that with all the other powers too!

In other words, why are you proposing something completely ridiculous to a reasonably described problem?

Give the man a break - he is visualizing!

(If I were a mod, this text might have been orange)

 

[KarinsDad]

I assume that Come And Get It would be fine as a paladin or warden power (ie, where it physically drags people next to them somehow) - it's just a problem on the fighter?

No. I think a pull (or any forced movement) with no to hit roll shouldn't be allowed unless there are alternative ways to avoid it (e.g. Grease where the foe can avoid it by not entering the zone).


How many powers move a foe before a to hit roll is accomplished?

How many powers do this as low as (or lower than) level 7?

How many powers do this to more than one foe?

How many powers do this and they aren't a Daily?

You won't find many powers this potent that accomplish all 4 of these, even though there are over 200 powers from level 1 to 7 that do forced movement.


I think that Come and Get It is not just bad design from a Martial Powers fluff perspective, it is also bad design mechanically and opens the door for other abuses at lower levels.

For all intents and purposes, it is a close burst 3 enemies only attack usable every encounter that affects foes even if the roll to hit is missed.

Most Encounter powers do not affect foes even if the roll is missed. That's the purview, for the most part, of Daily powers.

 

[keterys]

Yeah, lots of dailies include forced movement without needing to hit. Also I think something like the following on a wizard is fine:
Forceful Hand
Encounter
Minor
Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Effect: The target slides 1 square.

Or the existing Seeker ability to push all enemies in a close burst 1 as an effect. Or Repulsion armor which works without attacking an enemy.

Many encounter powers do have an effect on creatures even if the attack is missed - frex, No Respite pushes targets before making an attack, Winter's Wrath deals automatic damage, Strike of Judgment makes a creature's next attack heal an enemy, etc.

Also many encounter powers have an effect on a target -other- than the enemy without an attack roll, whether that's damage (Fiery Bolt, Cleave) or forced movement (Blood Spray Bile) or proning (Tremor).

And that was just from me looking at the first page of level 7 encounter powers

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, lots of dailies include forced movement without needing to hit. Also I think something like the following on a wizard is fine:
Forceful Hand
Encounter
Minor
Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Effect: The target slides 1 square.

Or the existing Seeker ability to push all enemies in a close burst 1 as an effect. Or Repulsion armor which works without attacking an enemy.

None of which do damage as well.

Repulsion Armor is a Daily that pushes an approaching foe one square once per turn. Not pulls multiples foes 2 squares once per encounter (plus do damage and mark foes).

Many encounter powers do have an effect on creatures even if the attack is missed - frex, No Respite pushes targets before making an attack, Winter's Wrath deals automatic damage, Strike of Judgment makes a creature's next attack heal an enemy, etc.

Also many encounter powers have an effect on a target -other- than the enemy without an attack roll, whether that's damage (Fiery Bolt, Cleave) or forced movement (Blood Spray Bile) or proning (Tremor).

And that was just from me looking at the first page of level 7 encounter powers

Hmmm. Not seeing it.

No Respite has limits on the push (and flavor wise, push is definitely better than pull IMO), and doesn't allow for damage against all of the targets. It is also the equivalent of Burst 1 instead of Burst 3.

Winters Wrath is not enemy only. A lot more limited overall (burst 2 instead of burst 3). It can do slightly more damage overall once in a blue moon, but typically does not. It's still weaker. And Wizards are supposed to be more expert at damaging and controlling multiple foes than Fighters are.

Strike of Judgement typically does less damage, is single target, and doesn't adversely affect enemies without a to hit roll. The fact that it heals an ally makes it slightly more useful, but it has zero foe adverse affect if it misses.

Fiery Bolt and Cleave require a successful to hit to damage other foes.

Blood Spray Bite and Tremor requires a successful to hit to affect other foes and only damage one target.


Even without including the Fighter's Mark, none of these powers come anywhere near the potency of Come and Get It. No Respite comes the closest and it is still weaker and typically affects fewer targets overall.

I'm not seeing where Come and Get It is anywhere near balanced with these 7th level powers (for those that are 7th).

My wife's Fighter has Come and Get It and she just whales on 3 or 4 foes in nearly every non-solo encounter. Not just with Come and Get It, but also with the synergy that allows for other close burst powers on latter rounds and the utility of marking most of the enemies. I doubt she would ever trade it out for a higher level Encounter power. It is just too useful and potent.

 

[Garthanos]

Well I am sure I don't want to argue that a rather potent martial controller move might not have snuck in to the Martial Defender Class ... nor will I argue that its synergy is anything but impressive. On that note I will just whistle a merry tune... and enjoy martial classes having a few cans of awesome for once in there long D&D history.

 

[Turtlejay]

Come and Get it has been railed on since release. Like a lot of things, there are haters and apologists, and it is unlikely clever rules interpretations or creative fluff will sway the haters. The apologists see it as a powerful, but acceptable option for fighters. Arguing about it won't really do much, but I do appreciate all the thought going into the fluff explanations.

I'd like it if Martial was equated more with Luck *and* skill, since a lot of the improbable things in the Martial suite of powers are more simply explained away when luck is invoked.

Jay

 

[Saeviomagy]

Even without including the Fighter's Mark, none of these powers come anywhere near the potency of Come and Get It. No Respite comes the closest and it is still weaker and typically affects fewer targets overall.

Ah, if you're arguing that the power is simply too good, then that's fine. I agree that it seems well off the normal power curve for controller abilities (which is what it is), and giving it to a class that is hardly a slouch when it comes to fulfilling their own role plus a second role seems a bit off. Moving the attack roll to the point where the slide is initiated (ie - close burst 3, str vs will, target is slid 2 squares to adjacent and then takes 1[w]+str) would seem like a decent solution.

 

[Starfox]

Ah, if you're arguing that the power is simply too good, then that's fine...

Agree - I have no problem VISUALIZING Come and get It, but I can agree it has a balance problem.

 

[Badapple]

Agree - I have no problem VISUALIZING Come and get It, but I can agree it has a balance problem.

This is pretty much how I feel.

Are there any fighters out there that choose a different level 7 power?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This is pretty much how I feel.

Are there any fighters out there that choose a different level 7 power?

It almost feels like there aren't. But the question might be - is it because it's too powerful, or just because everyone wants to play out the Come And Get It scene?

Let's compare (using the Compendium)
- Trip Up: Free Action Attack after a succesful basic attack, slows target or knocks it prone (reach weapon/polearm), deals 1[W]+STR. Vs Reflex
- Not So Fast: Immediate Interrupt, an enemy moves away from you, 1W+STR and slows or immobilizes (flail,pick).
- Savage Parry: Immediate Interrupt, enemy hits ally,Str (+Con with some weaopns) damage and ally takes half damage.
- Inertia Strike: 2W+STR damage, adjacent enemies take CON damage, -2 to attack
- Weapon Master's Gambit: 2W+STR damage and various effects (damage to adjacent creatures, or knocked prone, or combat advantage, slide/shift, depending on weapon used)
- Hampering Flurry: 2 Attacks (Primary + Off-Hand, 1W+STR damage, extra damage when both hit)
- Stay Down: 2W+STR damage and prone enemy can't stand up and takes extra damage
- Twofold Torment: 2 Attacks (Primary + Offhand), 1W+STR damage, pushes 1+DEX, extra damage for combat advantage.
- Bloody the Field: 2W+STR, Invigorating, dazes blooded target, extra damage with some weapons.
- Bludgeoning Wise: Hit + Followup (unarmed), 1W+STR, dazes with first, knock prone with second.
- Echoing Assault: 2W+STR, if target is still adjacent to you at your next turn, make extra attack.
- Hydra Charge: 1W+STR in Cluse Burst 1, enemies take attack penalty, can be used as part of a charge
- Opportunist's rend: two Attacks (main and off-hand), 1W+STR damage, can be used in place of melee basic.
- Come and Get It. Pull enemies in Close Burst 3, then attack for 1W+STR damage.
- Griffon's Wrath: 2W+STR damage and -2 penalty to AC
- Iron Bulwark: 2W+STR damage and +1 or +2 to AC (latter with shield)
- Reckless Strike: -2 attack, 3W+STR damage
- Sudden Surge: 2W + STR damage. Move Dex squares as Effect

Hydra Charge is kinda Come and Get It in reverse, since you can combine it with a charge. Stay Down can be very useful if you (or a party member) is build for trip-attacks, and can lock down a foe. Trip Up is a free action attack. Sure, it requires you to have made a basic attack, but Fighters do that a lot. Bloody the Field can be very useful against Elites or Solos that get more dangerous when bloodied, Bludgeoning Wise even a little more generally useful (even if target is not bloodied), the tempest powers generally will create good damage.

Come and Get It is certainly a good choice among those. Is it also clearly the best? I find it hard to judge it mechanically, but flavorwise, I love it above all others.