Come and Get it. An explanation ?

[Aloïsius]

Ok, we all like those powers... But how can the DM explain the effects of "come and get it" or similar martial powers ?

Imagine the following scene :
Surprise round :
Gobelins A, B, C, D and E are surprised by the PC and take heavy blows in the surprise round. D and E are dead.
Round 1 :
A, B and C use a move to shift out of reach and their standard action to run away, looking for reinforcement. They are now 1+6+2 =9 squares away from the fighter.
But the figher run (5+2) and then use "come and get it".
Every three gobelins suddenly bounce back 2 squares and are executed easily (run = combat advantage IIRC).



I mean, WHY would, let say, three fleeing creatures suddenly stop, reverse their course and move so that they can be eviscerated ? If I understand this power correctly, the pull can't be resisted, as the attack happen after.


This is the kind of things that irks me with 4e. Purely gamist stuff that shatters any suspension of disbelief and makes you "Whaaa ?"

So, do you think the DM should be allowed to say "give me a good explanation, or using this won't work more than tripping an ooze like you tired last time".

 

[Danzauker]

Most of the problems arise because ye are used as PLAYERS to think of D&D combat as round based. This is necessary mechanically speaking in order to run the game, but is a semplification of what is happening on the battlefield.

All combat for the CHARACTERS is happening simultaneously, instead. So you have to look at the whole picture, and sometimes using powers feels a bit as if you "adjust reality" (actually, it happens every time you reroll a die because of an interrupt).

You can say, than, that the two goblins didn't actually "bounce back", but they simply ran 2 squares less than what they intended, because the reaction of the fighter, who was running after them, shouting how he would eviscerate them and all their friends and children when he would reach them, was enough to scare them stiff and slow them.

Same is with other move related powers, like the Warlord "Own The Battlefield" one. Mechanically, as a player, you adjust the position of some enemies as you wish. Thematically, as a character, you feinted and manouvered all the time in order to trick the enemies in going exactly where you wanted to.

 

[Runestar]

A better question might be why it automatically succeeds...

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Have you read the "updated" power description?

Come and Get It [Revision]
Player’s Handbook, page 80
Replace the Effect line with the following:
Effect: You pull each target 2 squares to a space adjacent to you. You cannot
pull a target that cannot end adjacent to you. You then make a close attack
targeting each adjacent enemy.

Those Goblins do it because it's a pull, they do not choose to do so - it's forced movement.

Running imposes a -5 penalty for all your attack rolls until the start of your next turn. Since the Goblins grant CA, your down to a -3 penalty to hit. - The execution might not be so easy...

How you justify the means of the pull ingame...look at something like this:

You can say, than, that the two goblins didn't actually "bounce back", but they simply ran 2 squares less than what they intended, because the reaction of the fighter, who was running after them, shouting how he would eviscerate them and all their friends and children when he would reach them, was enough to scare them stiff and slow them.

Why does the pull succeed without a roll? -Maybe because you have to roll to hit to deal damage, to take full advantage of that power .

 

[LostSoul]

I mean, WHY would, let say, three fleeing creatures suddenly stop, reverse their course and move so that they can be eviscerated ?

I don't know, why would they? Come up with an explanation that makes sense for you.

For me:
Fighter: <runs at the goblins> Come and get it, bitches!
Goblins: <look back> (think: He's off balance, we can get a free shot in and maybe hamstring him so he can't chase us down.) Yarrgh!
Fighter: <chops them up>

Or:
Goblins: <look back> (think: By the hairy balls of Orcus, this guy is going to catch us! Better cut him down now that he's away from his friends) Yarrgh!
Fighter: <chops them up>

I'm sure there are a lot of reasons why they might feel forced to go back and get him. Be creative.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

Don't think about the power in a meta sense; look at it purely by situational roleplay. You have several foes running away, when the Fighter feigns weakness. Instead of the Goblins running away, they turn about again and attempt one last swat at their foe.

Or perhaps there's a minor skirmish, and the Fighter is being extremely cocky. He uses Come and Get It, in an attempt to draw his foe's ire. In this sense, it would seem like he's intimidating those of weaker mind to come towards him and fight...and they will.

It makes sense to me, so as long as the player and/or the DM describes it as such. For the most part, I tell my players to ignore the fluff and look at what the power actually does before describing their actions.

 

[fba827]

Or also...

Goblins: *running away*
Fighter: "Come and Get it - or i'll kill you and your family *taunt* *taunt*
Goblins: Darn it, he's following us and we'll lead him right to our homes... better try and get him or slow him down first....

So, it can be a taunt that they take seriously enough to know he will chase them to the ends of earth and kill all of their kind in the way...

Also realize that the slide isn't 'magical' in nature but rather from them turning/sidestepping based on their reaction to the taunt. I say this because powers that are about fear or charm (such as charm person, or a dragon's thing) are also represented as slides, pulls, and pushes and not "some mystical force propels you..." so you have to be able to accept it as jittery sidesteps and what not (or something like that).

 

[Khime]

So, do you think the DM should be allowed to say "give me a good explanation, or using this won't work more than tripping an ooze like you tired last time".

Ironically, oozes can be knocked prone in 4E.

 

[Gort]

I think it's a stupid power as well. Why would it work on an ooze, for instance? But it does.

Thankfully I have reasonable players I can tell, "I think this is a stupid power because of X, Y, and Z, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't take it" and they'll listen to me for the sake of the game.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

Also realize that the slide isn't 'magical' in nature but rather from them turning/sidestepping based on their reaction to the taunt. I say this because powers that are about fear or charm (such as charm person, or a dragon's thing) are also represented as slides, pulls, and pushes and not "some mystical force propels you..." [/).

This.

Push, pull and slide are used purely as the descriptor game mechanic for the effect on the board.