D&D (2024) Command is the Perfect Encapsulation of Everything I Don't Like About 5.5e

[Oofta]

To be clear. I actually don't care at all about the change to command, personally. I was unaware the spell was ever used.

For your specific example, I feel it's out of the scope of what I'm discussing. But in my opinion, people are weird. It is not "bad DMing" to not allow abusive uses that are obviously against the intent, and rules, of the spell. In the specific case, I would simply have the "walking" end at the edge of the boat. I would have the enemy end their turn there. In the case of swim, it really doesnt matter if you follow the command. Unless danger was present in the water, its fine. It's not a big deal.

I think there is a lot of hyperbole in this discussion, and much of it is unproductive. But that is, largely, the norm around here and it does make discussions more interesting. So I am happy people feel free to engage in such wild discussions.

Except the examples I gave aren't hyperbole. I had a DM tell me that "jump" meant jump off the edge of the ship into the ocean after I stated that I jumped in place. People have given examples of "swim" meaning "Jump into an adjacent body of water and start swimming" as a creative use of the spell. People use "defenestrate" or "autodefenestrate" to somehow meaning jump out of a nearby window. I had to look up the former in a dictionary, the latter is not in any official dictionary I can find.

So I think sometimes it's useful to take vague statements and get to actual examples.

 

[Pedantic]

I am not sure why I am tagged here. This isn't my thread. Not that mind being tagged, I'm just confused so please let me know if I'm missing some as I'm not going to read the full 1,000+ comments of this thread

Personally, I don't have a huge problem with D&D 2024 Command, though I generally prefer 5e 2014 Command. Players enjoy trying to use their own words to weasel things out, and usually anything they do is weaker than the default options unless they start trying to do things that won't work.

I do think that in many ways a system can be judged by the 'high water mark' if allowance and power, since at the end of the day things weaker than the 'high water mark' of the most powerful thing matter less then the most powerful thing.

I think that was a mistag, based on context, and that was intended for @Daztur . Could be wrong though!

 

[DinoInDisguise]

Except the examples I gave aren't hyperbole. I had a DM tell me that "jump" meant jump off the edge of the ship into the ocean after I stated that I jumped in place. People have given examples of "swim" meaning "Jump into an adjacent body of water and start swimming" as a creative use of the spell. People use "defenestrate" or "autodefenestrate" to somehow meaning jump out of a nearby window. I had to look up the former in a dictionary, the latter is not in any official dictionary I can find.

So I think sometimes it's useful to take vague statements and get to actual examples.

I think you are looking for something I cannot provide. I am sorry you had a bad experience with the spell.

I, personally, don't believe the DM, in your jump example, made the correct call. I think anytime a DM is interpreting a rule they should do so with an error in favor of the players. The simplest interpretation of jump is, as you said, to jump in place. I believe interpreting it as you described, with jumping into the water, is not a great way to handle it. It is, largely, interpreting the "rule" against the players, all while twisting the word "jump" by massively extending it's definition.

The DM of a game has, in my opinion, a far larger effect on the enjoyment of the players than the system does. This might be a hot take on this forum, but D&D is a social game, not a mechanical one. Almost all players will enjoy a game more with a good DM in a system they dislike, than with a bad DM with a system they like.

I think it is extraordinarily unfortunate that so many are subject to bad DMing. And it is even more so, that they believe it's the norm and that that behavior is the fault of the system. It causes people to stick in games they shouldn't be in, and to be blind to the real cause of their issues.

Players need to seek a DM they trust and who values their fun while at the table. Anything less is a disservice to yourself. I hope everyone can find such a DM. The hobby is much better when you do.

 

[plisnithus8]

I do not see that at all in the spell description. I see that you issue a command and it must follow it.

The spell says the caster says a word and the target must obey, but the target also must understand the language or it fails. Failing to understand language is similar to failing to understand intention. The spell spells out what happens with certain command words. The DM decides what happens with any other. The spell does not say anything about the player/caster intention having anything to do with it.

I think command is intended to be a combat spell

Why?

and making a creature do anything in combat is going to cause harm to it. Yes falling prone causes falling damage and harm, but then falling prone so that big Barbarian who is swinging his greatsword at you is going to cause harm to

The direct effect of falling is taking damage. A caster can't cast command while a barbarian is swinging its sword simultaneously in 5e. Falling prone near an opponent has a lot more indirect effect possibilities: the opponent does not attack the target, the opponent misses, and ally intervenes, etc.

 

[Oofta]

I think you are looking for something I cannot provide. I am sorry you had a bad experience with the spell.

I, personally, don't believe the DM, in your jump example, made the correct call. I think anytime a DM is interpreting a rule they should do so with an error in favor of the players. The simplest interpretation of jump is, as you said, to jump in place. I believe interpreting it as you described, with jumping into the water, is not a great way to handle it. It is, largely, interpreting the "rule" against the players, all while twisting the word "jump" by massively extending it's definition.

The DM of a game has, in my opinion, a far larger effect on the enjoyment of the players than the system does. This might be a hot take on this forum, but D&D is a social game, not a mechanical one. Almost all players will enjoy a game more with a good DM in a system they dislike, than with a bad DM with a system they like.

I think it is extraordinarily unfortunate that so many are subject to bad DMing. And it is even more so, that they believe it's the norm and that that behavior is the fault of the system. It causes people to stick in games they shouldn't be in, and to be blind to the real cause of their issues.

Players need to seek a DM they trust and who values their fun while at the table. Anything less is a disservice to yourself. I hope everyone can find such a DM. The hobby is much better when you do.

Well, in my case it was a public game at a gameday that typically had multiple DMs, most of whom were excellent. For whatever reason this particular DM made it clear through tone and reaction that they disliked me even as I introduced myself ... it was really weird.

On a more general note I try to adjudicate spells like this based on the level of the spell and whether it's fun in play. In addition, anything the players do also applies to the monsters. So related to this, I rarely use counterspell because it's just plain boring. Where I disagree with some people is that I don't really lean into the "the rule of cool" or the "always say yes" theories because I think limitations can make overcoming an obstacle more enjoyable. In any case I have other things I really should be doing.

 

[Lanefan]

I am not sure why I am tagged here. This isn't my thread. Not that mind being tagged, I'm just confused so please let me know if I'm missing some as I'm not going to read the full 1,000+ comments of this thread

Sorry - when posting I got @Daztur 's thread mixed up with yours. My bad.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Players need to seek a DM they trust and who values their fun while at the table. Anything less is a disservice to yourself. I hope everyone can find such a DM. The hobby is much better when you do.

Ultimately, rules matter. While no rules drafting is immune from a DM or a player acting in bad faith, the rules themselves and how they are worded impact gameplay.

Posters on both sides of this thread may disagree on which wording is better, but they agree that the way the spell is worded has an impact on its adjudication.

Is saying « people should play with a DM they should trust « advancing the discussion? Who’s on the other side of that issue?

 

[DinoInDisguise]

Ultimately, rules matter. While no rules drafting is immune from a DM or a player acting in bad faith, the rules themselves and how they are worded impact gameplay.

Posters on both sides of this thread may disagree on which wording is better, but they agree that the way the spell is worded has an impact on its adjudication.

Is saying « people should play with a DM they should trust « advancing the discussion? Who’s on the other side of that issue?

If we take a casual look at the sheer number of people citing, lets say, interesting justification for why the change was needed. It becomes clear that DM discretion comes up a lot. So trust in your DM, absolutely plays into that discussion.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Ultimately, rules matter. While no rules drafting is immune from a DM or a player acting in bad faith, the rules themselves and how they are worded impact gameplay.

Posters on both sides of this thread may disagree on which wording is better, but they agree that the way the spell is worded has an impact on its adjudication.

Is saying « people should play with a DM they should trust « advancing the discussion? Who’s on the other side of that issue?

I think that it does matter in this: if you play with a doucherocket DM/players you better keep things tight and limited.

But if your group tries to be reasonable and fair, you can have some more open ended-ness to give more room to creativity.

I have noticed those “scarred” by bad DMs often want something different from those who have had more positive ongoing experiences.

I personally like some guardrails but a more open road. For those who like similar, it does matter more who they are playing with.

I think it’s ok to note where you come from when you talk about your opinion. In my case I play with friends. The more open boundaries are ok since we don’t push limits with eachother too far.

The rules do matter though. But I think the endpoint you want frames the direction you advocate for. In other words, I don’t think everyone’s direction to better is a universal true north and some of that depends on your cohort.

 

[Daztur]

I think that was a mistag, based on context, and that was intended for @Daztur . Could be wrong though!

I'm honored to be confused with the great @KibblesTasty my son adores your classes and uses them constantly in games.

I think that it does matter in this: if you play with a doucherocket DM/players you better keep things tight and limited.

If you play with doucherockets you should quit that campaign.

It seems that the posters who don’t want it changed are arguing that it should remain more useful, more powerful and more versatile, independent of the power level of the spell compared to other spells or classes.

I don't think that the "people who like the 5e command better than the 5.5e Command just want a stronger spell" carries that much water. After all the 5.5e Command got two significant BUFFS (no language requirement and it works on undead). If 5e Command was too powerful why did they buff it? And in any case in a bog standard combat grovel or flee are usually going to be the most tactically useful versions of Command, I tend to use other Command words when:

1. Using a different Command word show my PC's personality, even if it is not the most tactically efficient word. I LOVE RPing during combat amd casting Commands that fit my current PC's personality is a great way to do that.

2. There is something unusual about the specific situation that would make some more unusual Command words more useful than they normally are. I like this as a DM as I love it when players pay attention to the situation they're in and tailor their actions to it instead of just defaulting to their standard combat tactics. I feel that this helps immersion immensely.

3. It's fun. If using a goofy Command word that fits the mood of the game would get a lot of laughs and make people happy then I'll break it out. I like having fun.