Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm guessing that Narrin needs a DC 15 check, and Claire needs a 30 DC check.

 

[Storm Raven]

Just what kind of Search check does Narrin need, to become aware of Claire, resting in the glade about 3,000 feet away?
Narrin takes 20 for the attempt, remember. He searches long and hard for clues of folk moving about.

These would be Spot checks. Spot is used to see things on a "marco" level. Search would be used to hunt for secret doors, look for traps, and the like.

What number does he need?

3,000 feet away? I would normally say that to see someone who is not hiding would be a Spot DC of 0 as a base, but there is a -1 modifier per 10 feet of distance. At 3,000 feet, that would be a DC 300 Spot check.

Claire is exhausted, but she is not so exhausted she does not Search the surrounding woodlands for signs of danger.

Spot again. Not Search.

She sees the hillock in the distance, obviously. But Narrin has carefully concealed himself in the trees, behind an artificial cover he and his squire built and nurtured. And he is actively trying to not be seen.

Claire has taken 20 also. What roll does she need, to see Narrin hiding up in the brush, atop that hillock?

DC 300 + the result of Narrin's Hide check.

As a side note, you do not roll if you Take 20. The use of Take 20 replaces a roll by giving you a result of a 20. It can only be done with skill checks for which there is no penalty for failure, and takes 20 times as long as a normal skill check.

 

[The_Gneech]

This is going to be the coolest romantic comedy ever!

-The Gneech

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Ok, something's wrong here.
Most people can look down the road, and see something human sized (especially if it is moving) 3,000 feet away. It won't be large, but they'll see it.
So it's not DC 300, for the Spot Check. In the case above, it'd be DC 5 (unless the viewer was nearsighted, as Yours Truly once was, obviously.)

So, anyone? Narrin is trying to Spot Claire. Claire is just generally looking for anything dangerous (but the only dangerous thing is Narrin, hiding up in the trees on that hillock, more than 100 feet up, 3,000 feet away. There is a direct line of sight between them, by a trick of the foliage of the forest. Claire looks at the hillock longer, since it is obvious to her a danger is more likely to be there.)

What would they need for their Spot rolls?

Storm Raven, thanks for the correction.
Gneech, LOL

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

It wouldn't be a Search check; it'd be a Spot check.

Moreover, it would be a Spot check opposed by the other person's Hide check and distance (and other) modifiers; so, the answer to, "How hard is it to see Narin?" is "What's the result of Nerin's Hide check?"

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Ok, something's wrong here.
Most people can look down the road, and see something human sized (especially if it is moving) 3,000 feet away. It won't be large, but they'll see it.

It also won't be Hiding. You won't be able to see that person if they're crouching in some bushes - even if they aren't particularly good at it.

 

[monboesen]

Now, these two should be ready to fight, IF I have correctly created them (not including mundane equipment.)

Yeah, however...

I don't know how you generated those ability scores, but the core standard array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

So it's more likely that they will look something like this.

*Note I had to change the fighter a bit as he could no longer take two-weapon fighting. You also need to realise that though it may look cool two-weapon fighting is no longer a good option for most fighters (costs a lot of feats and you still end up doing less damage). Only characters with special bonus damage (like rangers vs. favored enemies and rogues with sneak attack) benefits from two-weapon fighting. For a standard Dude fighter, the greatsword is the way to go.

Claire
Elf mage chick(Wizard 5)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Hit Dice: 5d4+5 (19 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: Move 30' (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 Mage armor), 12 touch, 10 flat-footed
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+1
Attack: Longsword +1 (1d8-1 19-20*2) or longbow +4 (1d8 20*3)
Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: Elf traits, Lowlight vision
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 13
Skills: Concentration +13 (8 ranks), Knowledge Arcana +7 (4 ranks), Listen + 2, Search +8 (3 ranks), Spellcraft +11 (8 ranks), Spot +5 (3 ranks)
Feats: Skill Focus (Concentration), Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Enlarge Spell, Scribe scroll.
Alignment: Neutral Good

120 years of age, 4 feet 6 inches tall, 80 pounds, long raven black hair (let down), blue eyes, milky skin.

Spell DC modifier: 13 + spell level
Spells per day: 0/4, 1/4, 2/3, 3/2
Spells readied:
0/Light (cast), Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead
1/Mage Armor (cast), Shocking Grasp*2, Magic Missile
2/Protection from Arrows (cast), Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray
3/Fireball, Hold Person.


Narrin
Human male (Fighter 5)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hit Dice: 5d10+10 (42 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: Move 20' (4 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, +8 Armor), 11 touch, 18 flat-footed
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+8
Attack: Greatsword +9 (2d6+6 19-20*2) or longbow +4 (1d8 20*3)
Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet
Special Attacks: Spells
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Skills: Climb 4 ranks (Str + 4), Jump 4 ranks (Str + 4), Swim 8 ranks (Str + 4), Spot 4 ranks (8 points spent)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Point blank shot, Point Blank Shot
Alignment: Neutral

If they where to fight each other the mage would be smart to start of with her Hold person spell. Followed up by a Coup de grace with her Shocking grasp.

The fighter has to make a DC 16 will save (he has a +1 modifier) to avoid being held. He has a 30 % chance of making it. Mage starts her Coup de Grace on her next action. Then he makes another one at the end of the next turn, again a 30 % chance of making it. If he misses both its automatic critical for 10d6 damage (average of 35) and a Fortitude DC 45 save to survive on the mages third turn.

Should they end up in close combat the fighter hits with 70 % of his attacks for an average of 14,3 damage. That's an average of 10 hp per round (a bit more with some clever power attacking). So the mage will be lucky to survive more than 2 rounds of melee.

The lesson you should take from this is.

1. a mage should avoid melee at all costs
2. at this level a mage will be hard pressed to kill a fighter through damaging spells (at least before the fighter has cloven her in two). She needs to hinder his actions.
3. a mage should use spells that target reflex and will saves against fighters.

Some spells that might help the mage win.

1. Ray of enfeeblement (easy hit, no save, 1d6+2 str penalty), Shield (+4 more AC), Expeditious retreat (+30 ft. movement to keep distance).
2. Glitterdust (will save or blindness, that's a winner), Hideous laughter (will save or no actions for 5 rounds, that's 4 rounds of free spellcasting), Shatter (bye, bye Greatsword), Mirror image (missed me, missed me, missed me again), Levitate (now at missile range with protection from arrows, that's a win, win situation).
3. Fly (as levitate, but better), Slow (will save, combined with Expeditious retreat this makes you able to run circles around the fighter without him being able to close in for melee).

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Somewhere in the DMG... there's a... thing... for encounter distance and making spot checks. In general, the encounter distance is pretty short in a forested area (I wanna day its around 30 or 40 feet). The DC for the Spot chek is 20 At The Encounter Distance. In this case you (The DM) have overruled the 'normal' forest encounter distance by 'some trick of the foliage'... Which is fine... It simply makes the encounter distance equal to 3,000 feet.

So... The Spot DC would be 20, if neither of them are hiding. The fact that Narrin is hiding alters things somewhat.

The Spot check DC for Narrin to see Claire is still 20, but Narrin takes a -5 penalty on his Spot check because he is hiding (It's harder to see when you are tyring not to be seen yourself).

The Spot check DC for Claire to see Narrin is 20 plus Narrin's Hide check result.

Later
silver

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

LOL. Neither of them see the other. Encounter over!

I'll go by the template you've given, monboesen. Thanks for the template. I'll use it on all further character builds.
But I'm sticking to the ability scores as I created them, because I'm not using Standard Builds of 28 or 32 points in this case. I'm assuming the old 4d6 roll, drop the lowest dice, method (which is in the 3.5 PHB, so it's still a standard rule.) I'm assuming both of these characters got lucky with their dice rolls, and incredibly (a Ripley's Believe It or Not) rolled just about the same stats. Of course, they put their numbers in different stats, being different classes and races.

So ...

Claire
Cute Elven Mage (Wizard 5)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Hit Dice: 5d4 + 10 (24 hp)
Initiative: + 7
Speed: Move 30 feet (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+ 3 Dex), 13 touch, 10 flat-footed
Base Attack/Grapple: + 2 / + 2
Attack: Longsword + 2 (1d8 19-20*2), longbow + 5 (1d8 20*3, 100 ft), dagger + 2 (1 - 4, 19-20*2, 10 ft)
Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: Elf traits, Lowlight vision
Saves: Fort + 3, Ref + 4, Will + 4
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 13
Skills: Concentration + 13 (8 ranks), Knowledge Arcana + 7 (4 ranks), Listen + 2, Search + 8 (3 ranks), Spellcraft + 11 (8 ranks), Spot + 5 (3 ranks)
Feats: Skill Focus (Concentration), Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Enlarge Spell.
Alignment: Neutral Good
Diety: Reveres Sehanine Moonbow, other Seldarine deities

120 years of age, 4 feet 6 inches tall, 80 pounds, long raven black hair (let down), blue eyes, milky skin.
Languages: Common, Elven, Draconian, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan

Spell DC modifier: 13 + spell level
Spells per day: 0/4, 1/4, 2/3, 3/2
Spells readied:
0/Light, Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead
1/Mage Armor, Shocking Grasp*2, Magic Missile
2/Protection from Arrows, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray
3/Fireball, Hold Person.


Narrin
Human male (Fighter 5)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hit Dice: 5d10 + 10 (42 hp)
Initiative: + 1
Speed: Move 20 feet (4 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (+ 2 Dex, + 8 Armor, + 2 Shield), 12 touch, 20 flat-footed
Base Attack/Grapple: + 5 / + 9
Attack: Heavy pick + 11 (1d6 + 5 20*4), long sword + 9 (1 - 8 + 4, 19-20*2), light pick + 9 (1 - 4, 20*4), throwing axe (1 - 6 + 4, 20*2, 10 ft), or heavy composite bow + 9 (1 - 8 + 4, 19-20*2, 110 feet)
Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet
Special Attacks: None
Saves: Fort + 6, Ref + 3, Will + 1
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 10.

Skills: Climb 4 ranks (Str + 4), Jump 4 ranks (Str + 4), Swim 8 ranks (Str + 4), Spot 4 ranks (8 points spent)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Heavy Pick), Weapon Specialization (Heavy pick), Two Weapon Proficiency, Point Blank Shot
Alignment: Neutral
Diety: Reveres Tempus, Helm, some others

EDIT: Done. (I hope)

 

[Michael Silverbane]

LOL. Neither of them see the other. Encounter over!

That can and does occassionally happen. Usually, when neither party becomes aware of the other, the DM can continue calling for (or making, since Spot is one of those skills whose checks are often made in secret) Spot checks, possibly reducing the check DC as the two parties draw closer to one another. In the case that you've posited above, the two characters are quite likely to miss one another, but that sort of thing is where circumstancial modifiers come in...

Since you've indicated that Narrin is local to the area, and often scouts it out in this way in order to waylay passersby for their goodies, you might give him a circumstance bonus to his Spot check (usually equal to +2) since he knows that travellers will usually pass through and/or stop to rest in that clearing.

You could, concievably, give a similar bonus to Claire, since you indicated that she was suspicious of the hillock, which just happens to be where Narrin is hiding. Of course, a +2 bonus for her Spot check will likely not be as useful, since Narrin is hidden.

Later
silver