D&D 5E Companion thread to "5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part VI: Fighters)"


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Vaalingrade

Legend
Actually, one of the BEST! (y)
Nope.

It's pretty much the worst thing 5e has done.

It might have a shot at top ten of worst things D&D has done, depending on if the Books of Exalted Darkness and Vile Deeds count as 1 and if anyone remembers that class with a mechanic that made it impossible to cast its spells.
 


Actually, one of the BEST! (y)
It fails mechanically to do what it was designed to do, while simultaneously falling short thematically of what it was designed to do, as admitted by the lead designer himself (he very specifically said that the Fighter was one of his few regrets regarding 5e, and in specific, its total lack of flavor.)

The Champion continues the longstanding (apart from 4e) tradition of making simple Fighters suck mechanically and provide no input thematically, not even to the limited extent of being better thematically at fighting. Remarkable Athlete is trash (its only benefit is boosting Initiative, which has nothing to do with being an athlete!), a second fighting style is nearly worthless because almost all fighting styles are incompatible by design and support completely different playstyles and weapons, and the increased critical requires an enormous slog of combats to even have a chance of catching up to the Battlemaster, to say nothing of classes like Paladin.

Champion sucks. Pure and simple. It could have been good, good without even needing fancy features and complexity, but 5e's designers were allergic to giving "always-on" classes anything that looked even remotely like actual power. Same issue with Warlock, the only "full caster" that falls on the weak side because it's a semi-"always-on" class and thus had to be kept weak 'cause we can't risk them ever even potentially overshadowing the Wizard or Cleric or Druid!
 

Corinnguard

Explorer
It would be nice if the Fighter archetypes were modeled after the Fighting styles. Two-Weapon Fighting in first edition Pathfinder has the Two-weapon warrior archetype. Archery seems to be the only Fighting style that has an archetype (the Sharpshooter) that was made for it.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Oooh! Clever! Not a bad idea.

Personally I'd rather use less potent ability more often than be super limited in powerful abilities.

If you only get 2 shots per rest, it means you only get to FEEL like an Arcane Archer for what is essentially 12 seconds every other hour or so. The shots ARE good, but the subclass needed something that's always on, just for the feel of it. And they needed to get more shots as they progressed.
Yeah they basically needed to make a 1/3rd caster and hide that it’s a caster. Including a couple at-will abilities.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
It fails mechanically to do what it was designed to do, while simultaneously falling short thematically of what it was designed to do, as admitted by the lead designer himself (he very specifically said that the Fighter was one of his few regrets regarding 5e, and in specific, its total lack of flavor.)

The Champion continues the longstanding (apart from 4e) tradition of making simple Fighters suck mechanically and provide no input thematically, not even to the limited extent of being better thematically at fighting. Remarkable Athlete is trash (its only benefit is boosting Initiative, which has nothing to do with being an athlete!), a second fighting style is nearly worthless because almost all fighting styles are incompatible by design and support completely different playstyles and weapons, and the increased critical requires an enormous slog of combats to even have a chance of catching up to the Battlemaster, to say nothing of classes like Paladin.

Champion sucks. Pure and simple. It could have been good, good without even needing fancy features and complexity, but 5e's designers were allergic to giving "always-on" classes anything that looked even remotely like actual power. Same issue with Warlock, the only "full caster" that falls on the weak side because it's a semi-"always-on" class and thus had to be kept weak 'cause we can't risk them ever even potentially overshadowing the Wizard or Cleric or Druid!

The brute is so much better - it's only weakness is it's description. Make it more "championy" and it's great.

The Warlock could be better yes, but it's still a lot of fun to play.
 


The brute is so much better - it's only weakness is it's description. Make it more "championy" and it's great.
Hmm. It's decent. I think it probably could've used a little tweaking so that it had something to offer besides massive combat stuff (since the Fighter chassis doesn't do that either), but it's a damn sight better than the Champion as-is.

Personally, I'd bump the Durability bonus up to level 10 (perhaps making it +1d8 as recompense?) and give some kind of solid but simple skill-related benefit at 6th level. Something like "Rough and Ready: You can improvise your way through difficult situations. When you make an ability check other than Initiative and do not apply your proficiency bonus, you can roll a d6 and add the result to your check. You can do this a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and regain all uses after a long rest." A simple benefit which lets you fake proficiency with almost anything. Maybe improve it at a higher level so it either gets a bigger die or can be applied even if you are proficient.

The Warlock could be better yes, but it's still a lot of fun to play.
I should hope it is at least some fun to play. This is very similar to the "it's a playable game" defense. That is, if the Warlock genuinely were impossible to enjoy, if it literally was made in such a way that no person, no matter how hard they tried, could ever have fun playing it, then that would firstly be one of the most dangerous weapons of psychological warfare ever developed, and secondly it should never have even made it to the page to need improvement in the first place.

"You can have fun using it" is an absolute rock-bottom, bare-minimum qualification. It is like saying that a particular bit of food is edible. It had better be! If it isn't edible it isn't food!

The Psi Knight is so easy to reflavor though. It can be "ancient techniques", "ki", the force... I've played it for a few levels, it's a fun class.

Edit: the notion that the psi warrior might go before the champion or the purple knight is ... wow.
Some people just really, really hate psionics, sadly.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
another fighter pet peeve - the Eldritch Knight.

Now, we know the EK is like playing a fighter with a solid dash of magic. But... what I've seen in play is that the spell slots are almost entirely consumed by casting shield. And after a while that's a bit boring and not very magical.

So it's not a dash, it's a sprinkle of magic. You might as well take magical adept, find familiar as your spell and 2 cantrips, and you'll be almost as magical as an EK. Sure, you won't have the shield spell, but you'll have an entire other subclass...
 

another fighter pet peeve - the Eldritch Knight.

Now, we know the EK is like playing a fighter with a solid dash of magic. But... what I've seen in play is that the spell slots are almost entirely consumed by casting shield. And after a while that's a bit boring and not very magical.

So it's not a dash, it's a sprinkle of magic. You might as well take magical adept, find familiar as your spell and 2 cantrips, and you'll be almost as magical as an EK. Sure, you won't have the shield spell, but you'll have an entire other subclass...
The problem with trying to implement the "full fusion of magic and martial" concept in something as small as a subclass. Particularly a Fighter subclass, because they loaded so much into the fundamental chassis.

Doubly so in 5e, where the high levels, aka the levels that would actually let you get a halfway-decent number of spell slots, are so rarely reached by actual games.
 

another fighter pet peeve - the Eldritch Knight.

Now, we know the EK is like playing a fighter with a solid dash of magic. But... what I've seen in play is that the spell slots are almost entirely consumed by casting shield. And after a while that's a bit boring and not very magical.

So it's not a dash, it's a sprinkle of magic. You might as well take magical adept, find familiar as your spell and 2 cantrips, and you'll be almost as magical as an EK. Sure, you won't have the shield spell, but you'll have an entire other subclass...
The recent trend for racial/feat spells to be castable using spell slots makes the EK rather more flexible. You could pick up Hex for a damage boost for example.

But Shield EK is one of the most effective tanks in the game. Players like it. Not everyone wants a vast array of buttons.
 

The recent trend for racial/feat spells to be castable using spell slots makes the EK rather more flexible. You could pick up Hex for a damage boost for example.

But Shield EK is one of the most effective tanks in the game. Players like it. Not everyone wants a vast array of buttons.
And the option for people who want a moderate array of buttons is...?

You act like this is a rare and special thing, torn with great effort from the greedy hands of those who have gotten everything they want and more. It's not. It's yet another no-brainer option added to the pile of no-brainer options. Responding to "okay so, when's it my turn?" with "not everybody wants what YOU want" is...not exactly friendly.
 


Immoralkickass

Explorer
Hot take: I just feel like Fighters' subclasses kinda suck. They are all kinda crap except Echo Knight, Rune Knight, Psi Warrior and Battlemaster.

Arcane Archer is a joke, its like Hawkeye brought 2 trick arrows to a fight.
Cavalier. When your mount dies, where are you going to get another one? Just play a paladin already.
Champion. A glorified grunt, just swing your weapon at everything. Can run by a bot on auto-play.
Eldritch Knight. Not as bad as the others here, but War Magic gets redundant as you get more Extra Attacks. Also, too little magic.
Purple Dragon Knight. Hahaha, No.
Samurai. Actually decent at higher levels, but the Fighting Spirits 3 uses per day bugs me, and each use only last 1 turn.

No point talking about the UA stuff, there's a reason some of them didn't become official.
 


Corinnguard

Explorer
The problem with trying to implement the "full fusion of magic and martial" concept in something as small as a subclass. Particularly a Fighter subclass, because they loaded so much into the fundamental chassis.

Doubly so in 5e, where the high levels, aka the levels that would actually let you get a halfway-decent number of spell slots, are so rarely reached by actual games.
The Eldritch Knight is pretty limited in what it can do as a spellcasting fighter. I happen to like this homebrewed version from GM Binder a lot better. Eldritch Knight - School Specialization by Enaluxeme It doesn't limit you to just abjuration and evocation magic. Instead you can pick spells from any two of the eight wizard schools, and not only that your choices give you additional benefits at 3rd and 15th level when you get your weapon bond and your arcane power subclass features.

Now if you want an actual class that is the arcane equivalent of a Ranger or a Paladin, there is the homebrewed Magus class on GM Binder by Laser Llama. The Magus Class by laserllama A fellow player of mine likens this class to a fusion of the Eldritch Knight Fighter and the Bladesinger Wizard subclasses, as it shares a number of features found in both subclasses. Especially in it's Order of the Blade Dancer archetype. The Order of the Arcane Archer archetype is a lot more interesting than the Arcane Archer Fighter subclass.

Given a choice between the Eldritch Knight and the Magus, I probably would go for the Magus. :)
 

Undrave

Hero
another fighter pet peeve - the Eldritch Knight.

Now, we know the EK is like playing a fighter with a solid dash of magic. But... what I've seen in play is that the spell slots are almost entirely consumed by casting shield. And after a while that's a bit boring and not very magical.

So it's not a dash, it's a sprinkle of magic. You might as well take magical adept, find familiar as your spell and 2 cantrips, and you'll be almost as magical as an EK. Sure, you won't have the shield spell, but you'll have an entire other subclass...
the Eldritch Knight never felt like a fusion of Fighter and Mage, more like a guy who swings a sword with one arm and sometimes sling a spell with the other, but it's still two different things.
 

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