D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

[TheCosmicKid]

I don't think there can be a resolution to the issue. Every possible solution is in conflict with something a lot of people like about what we currently have. Fixing something by removing something people like isn't much of a fix is it?

I dunno. How many people like crappy adventure design? I think we can fix that without stepping on too many toes.

 

[FrogReaver]

I dunno. How many people like crappy adventure design? I think we can fix that without stepping on too many toes.

Better adventure design doesn't solve that problem. There are some groups that adequate adventures can't be fairly designed for. A group of peasents with a level 20 wizard for example. No adventure design is going to work for that group because the inherent abilities of each individual character don't lend to balance in spot light, combat or any other way.

So why do you think it's goina be possible to design adventures that will balance these classes? And even if an adventure can be written that might could, shouldn't the classes be balanced in a greater variety of contexts than whatever limits would need to be placed on such adventure designs to get them to work?

 

[FrogReaver]

There's a lot of talk about modelling fiction.

Which fiction?

(Not that 'modelling fiction' - any fiction - is a good description of what D&D does.)

In this case I'm specifically talking about the fiction around spell casting. D&D does specifically model that and the fiction that's based on is incompatible with many of the proposals on this thread.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Better adventure design doesn't solve that problem. There are some groups that adequate adventures can't be fairly designed for. A group of peasents with a level 20 wizard for example. No adventure design is going to work for that group because the inherent abilities of each individual character don't lend to balance in spot light, combat or any other way.

...

You are describing The Hobbit.

 

[FrogReaver]

...

You are describing The Hobbit.

Which makes for a terrible multiplayer game!

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I know, everybody always wants to play Bilbo. It's just horrible.

 

[FrogReaver]

I know, everybody always wants to play Bilbo. It's just horrible.

Sarcasm isn't becoming...

Most fictional stories don't work very well as tabletop RPG adventures - at least without heavy adaptation.

 

[Monayuris]

I totally am sick of hearing it too. Everybody gets to improvise, but the casters get these chunk of mechanic wih a CLEAR and PRECISE effect that are far more reliable than "I roll for Acrobatics".

This is the major difference.

Skills, improvisational actions and maneuvers that can be done at will are compared to what are supposed to be limited use clear precise mechanics (spells). This is a sensical approach as long as it is balanced correctly.

If casters are using spells as often as martials are improvising then, either the adventure is poorly designed or the game is poorly designed.

5E and modern D&D gives spell casters so much more opportunity to use magic. Compare a 1st level B/X magic user who gets 1 spell per day vs a 1st level 5E Wizard who can cast 3 spells per day (2+Arcane Recovery) + unlimited cantrips (which on their own are better than most non spellcaster actions).

In B/X the Magic User only has one time per game where they can automatically inject their agency by way of a rule (spell). Fighters can do their thing encounter after encounter and have a lot more control and agency in the game relative to the magic user.

In 5E, Wizards are empowered much further in this regard. It's a fundamental issue with the 5E game design. Wizards (and other spellcasters) are given too many tools to affect play compared to other non-caster classes.

I know a lot of people complain that magic users only get so few spells. Personally, I'm ok with it, I see the reaction to such complaint has been to push the balance too far in the other direction.

To fix this in 5E... I'd do the following.
1. Remove at-will cantrips from the game.
2. Keep the number of spells per day - but maybe cut down across the board with extra magic abilities for spell-casters.
3. Allow spell casting to be interrupted - if you are hit before your spell is cast you lose the spell (or require a Concentration save to keep the casting).

I'd look at how well classic D&D handles the balance between fighters and magic-users, and I'd implement rules to bring 5E closer in line.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Which is a non-starter because the fiction we are modeling has spells that occur on demand...

To be fair, the fiction being modeled is heroic fantasy, a broad genre that often includes magic that is very inconsistent in it's availability. (The stars are not right! Only once the three tablets are recovered.... None but the direct descendent of Tarak.... etc etc)

 

[FrogReaver]

To be fair, the fiction being modeled is heroic fantasy, a broad genre that often includes magic that is very inconsistent in it's availability. (The stars are not right! Only once the three tablets are recovered.... None but the direct descendent of Tarak.... etc etc)

That there's fiction where that happens doesn't mean that's the magic in fiction that D&D is modeling with it's spell casting mechanics.