D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

[Undrave]

Am I the only one who gets sick of hearing "just role play better" or use your skills as an excuse to do nothing about the gulf between casters and martial characters? This totally ignores that the casters can roleplay and use skills alongside their mechanics to get through situations be they exploratory or social. Meanwhile martial characters are constantly been beaten with the realism stick and told that they have everything they need so there is no need for them to get extra mechanics. An utterly hypocritical argument.

I totally am sick of hearing it too. Everybody gets to improvise, but the casters get these chunk of mechanic wih a CLEAR and PRECISE effect that are far more reliable than "I roll for Acrobatics".

 

[FrogReaver]

I totally am sick of hearing it too. Everybody gets to improvise, but the casters get these chunk of mechanic wih a CLEAR and PRECISE effect that are far more reliable than "I roll for Acrobatics".

Maybe... but fictionally shouldn’t magic function like that and mundane things function differently?

 

[Manbearcat]

Maybe... but fictionally shouldn’t magic function like that and mundane things function differently?

Why?

In a healthy amount of genre fiction, magic is temperamental and unstable at best...calamitous at worse.

Just because a spellcaster has a desired effect (just like a martial character) doesn't mean that absolute mastery over the arcane with predictable effect should be assumed.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

t would be crappy adventure design if the game system didn't offer such abilities like the reality inside Ocean's 11.

Since the game engine does include those abilities specifically so the inhabitants of the world can use them to overcome challenges and the game world and adventure should include varied challenges, then it isn't crappy design.

In nonmagical stories, there are still many things the protagonists can't do that other specialists could do. If one of the Ocean sequels threw at our heroes the challenge of breaking into the International Space Station, well, nobody on either the boys' team or the girls' team has access to a spacecraft or the skill to fly one. In a different movie starring astronauts that part of the plot might be trivial, but in this movie there's going to have to be a subplot where they find a clever way to steal or stowaway or con their way onto a rocket.

(Incidentally, I would watch the hell out of this. Get on it, Hollywood.)

But if the writers were like, "Well, nobody on the crew is an astronaut, so end of story, go home", that would be a crappy movie. And if a DM is like, "Well, none of you can cast the water breathing spell, so end of adventure, go home", that is crappy adventure design. It remains crappy adventure design irrespective of the fact that the game system offers this ability in principle, just as our Ocean movie remains a crappy movie irrespective of the fact that astronauts do exist in the world.

Forget about nonmagical characters: there's no guarantee that the party mage knows the spell in question either. Like I said earlier, Gandalf pretty obviously doesn't know fly. And it's not even just about spells. In my early days of D&D, and in games based on classic D&D tropes like Baldur's Gate, my number one priority was not making sure there was a mage in the party -- it was making sure there was a rogue in the party. Because locks and traps were far more common obstacles than anything that required a specific spell to get through. And I hated it. Exactly the same logic applies here: if there's a locked door and the DM says, "Well, none of you is a rogue, so end of adventure, go home", that is crappy adventure design. A challenge that can only be overcome by a specific character build which may not be in the party isn't a "varied challenge". It's the opposite. It's a narrow, railroaded challenge, and DMs should avoid presenting such challenges at all costs.

 

[FrogReaver]

Why?

In a healthy amount of genre fiction, magic is temperamental and unstable at best...calamitous at worse.

Just because a spellcaster has a desired effect (just like a martial character) doesn't mean that absolute mastery over the arcane with predictable effect should be assumed.

I think your ignoring the greater amount of in genre fiction where such is possible for a spell caster

 

[Manbearcat]

What difference does it make if the literature is split 42/58 or 61/39 or 50/50?

The only thing that matters is:

a) There is a healthy precedent for magic being unstable and temperamental.

b) Magic being unstable and temperamental would (and has in the games that use it) serve to make for (i) more emergent play with interesting complications from magic and (ii) serve to contract the classic martial : spellcaster divide in terms of potency.

 

[FrogReaver]

What difference does it make if the literature is split 42/58 or 61/39 or 50/50?

The only thing that matters is:

a) There is a healthy precedent for magic being unstable and temperamental.

b) Magic being unstable and temperamental would (and has in the games that use it) serve to make for (i) more emergent play with interesting complications from magic and (ii) serve to contract the classic martial : spellcaster divide in terms of potency.

Or that’s the thing that doesn’t matter. The fiction we are trying to model is the fiction where spell casters can produce expected results with little to no chance of failure.

 

[Manbearcat]

Then say that.

And then we need to admit that we're back to square 1. Square 1 being:

The only way to achieve spellcaster : martial parity (particularly as levels accrue and arcane power surges upward and outward) is (a) GM Force in the way of the classic (brutally obnoxious in my opinion) premptive or post-hoc block tropes that we're all very aware of (rampant...stealing spellbooks and components, anti-magic fields, anti-teleportation circles, counterspelling NPCs, etc) and/or (b) heavily GM-curated play where they have a massively disproportionate role in the trajectory of play with "tailored encounters" and "spotlight dispensation."

Going back to that square 1 is a non-starter for @Campbell (the thread's starter) and many, many, many other players of D&D and its offshoots.

 

[FrogReaver]

Then say that.

And then we need to admit that we're back to square 1. Square 1 being:

The only way to achieve spellcaster : martial parity (particularly as levels accrue and arcane power surges upward and outward) is (a) GM Force in the way of the classic (brutally obnoxious in my opinion) premptive or post-hoc block tropes that we're all very aware of (rampant...stealing spellbooks and components, anti-magic fields, anti-teleportation circles, counterspelling NPCs, etc) and/or (b) heavily GM-curated play where they have a massively disproportionate role in the trajectory of play with "tailored encounters" and "spotlight dispensation."

Going back to that square 1 is a non-starter for @Campbell (the thread's starter) and many, many, many other players of D&D and its offshoots.

It could be that the fiction we are trying to model just doesn’t make for a balanced game

Or it could be that we can model that fiction while keeping the game balanced - which has been my proposal.

Martial players need limited control over the fiction to use short rest or long rest recharge abilities. Martial classes must basically dominate combat as they get primarily chance based abilities outside combat.

IMO rogues and warriors should be lumped together. Martial classes should typically get to be really good at skills.

 

[Manbearcat]

There are lots of answers to the problem outlined in the lead post.

My guess is that creating a situation where martial characters dominate the arena of combat (with spellcasters being relegated to support or bystanders) and spellcasters solving all (or at least the overwhelming bulk of) other play obstacles (with martial characters being relegated to support or bystanders) is also a non-starter.

Alternatively, you can have obstacle engagement be a dynamic, emergent property of play while simultaneously having strong, coherent archetypes. You can have niches where you don't dominate specific arenas and relegate other "classes" or "playbooks" to mere support or bystander status.