Complete Mage - Is it out yet?

[Rystil Arden]

Do great wyrms just go blindly scooping up random sheep herds in your campaigns?
In mine the sheep (or whatever) are pretty much brought to the dragon when you get anywhere near this power level.

The Great Wyrm is the master of its domain. Since I don't allow effects like the hypothetical touch attack Invisible Needle to ignore SR, it knows that it can do what it wants with impunity unless some nigh-epic opponents appear, so if it enjoys the thrill of the hunt, it'll go for it. With the needle, it has to not do this.

 

[BryonD]

1000 >> 50

The 11th-level Cleric is below standard max level for any Metropolis. Frankly, against a CR 21+ dragon, I won't begrudge the Wizards that. Or the Fighters if they like.

Shrug

Now you are selectively using the meta-setting to the wizards advantage while refusing to accept that the dragon should gain comparable opportunities.
If the wizards get allies then the dragon must get his as well.
If you stop begrudging the dragon access to his resources, then the wizards will be a minor afternoon's amusement.


To get to the bottom line, without the slightest abuse of the rules this would NEVER come close to working in any of my campaigns and therefore this basis for the feat being a problem is groundless. If this WOULD be a problem in your campaign then I would suggest that it is a problem with YOUR campaign, not the feat.

 

[BryonD]

The Great Wyrm is the master of its domain. Since I don't allow effects like the hypothetical touch attack Invisible Needle to ignore SR, it knows that it can do what it wants with impunity unless some nigh-epic opponents appear, so if it enjoys the thrill of the hunt, it'll go for it. With the needle, it has to not do this.

But it is completely helpless to catch on to the ambush?????
It was helpless to ever become aware that the wizards did something to know he was coming?

Or are there 50 L5 wizards permanetly doing NOTHING but waiting around as sheep for weeks and weeks hoping the dragon attacks him? And again in THIS case why does NOTHING in the dragon's resources alert him to this long term plan?

You still are not getting outside of just completely absurd assumptions that allow the wizards full advantage of detailed setting and support while denying the dragon the most basic assumptions of gear or preparation. It is beyond a simple double standard.
You would need to do a LOT better than this to even make it seem like the "balance" here is remotely debatable.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Shrug

Now you are selectively using the meta-setting to the wizards advantage while refusing to accept that the dragon should gain comparable opportunities.
If the wizards get allies then the dragon must get his as well.
If you stop begrudging the dragon access to his resources, then the wizards will be a minor afternoon's amusement.


To get to the bottom line, without the slightest abuse of the rules this would NEVER come close to working in any of my campaigns and therefore this basis for the feat being a problem is groundless. If this WOULD be a problem in your campaign then I would suggest that it is a problem with YOUR campaign, not the feat.

The point is this:

Powerful creatures, of which Great Wyrm dragons are an example, are typically statted such that they can't be defeated by a group of 100 low-level enemies.

Take 100 5th-level characters generated with core rules only and buff them up with whatever long-enough-lasting core buffs you'd like (up to and including 6th-through 8th level buffs provided by the highest level local) and standard wealth for NPCs. You won't have created a force that can defeat a Great Wyrm. The Wyrm would laugh at this

With this new effect, 100 5th-level Wizards can do it in 1 round. All they need is for it to drop its guard long enough for them to get in range.

This creates a necessary mindset of paranoia for the Great Wyrms, rather than cocky confidence, as even pathetic weaklings can easily kill them if they make a mistake. I would rather not have that mindset be required (though some elder dragons in my campaign do indeed have such an attitude)

 

[BryonD]

All they need is for it to drop its guard long enough for them to get in range.

Massive flaw alert

 

[Rystil Arden]

But it is completely helpless to catch on to the ambush?????
It was helpless to ever become aware that the wizards did something to know he was coming?

Or are there 50 L5 wizards permanetly doing NOTHING but waiting around as sheep for weeks and weeks hoping the dragon attacks him? And again in THIS case why does NOTHING in the dragon's resources alert him to this long term plan?

You still are not getting outside of just completely absurd assumptions that allow the wizards full advantage of detailed setting and support while denying the dragon the most basic assumptions of gear or preparation. It is beyond a simple double standard.
You would need to do a LOT better than this to even make it seem like the "balance" here is remotely debatable.

How about a Divination?

"Where should we wait to ambush the dragon?"

"Westman's Field disguised as sheep.
As brightest dawn from night doth creep.
To send the crimson foe to sleep"

 

[BryonD]

This creates a necessary mindset of paranoia for the Great Wyrms, rather than cocky confidence, as even pathetic weaklings can easily kill them if they make a mistake. I would rather not have that mindset be required (though some elder dragons in my campaign do indeed have such an attitude)

I also consider this position deeply flawed because there ARE other spells and effects that will keep dragon's on ther toes.
Yes, there are much higher level. But because you have failed to actually demonstrate how the wizards could utilize this feat without a twice compounded double stadnard in your assumptions there is no reason to see any change in the status on things.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Massive flaw alert

If those are the kind of replies I'm going to be getting, I guess that means there's no need to continue discussing this.

 

[BryonD]

How about a Divination?

"Where should we wait to ambush the dragon?"

"Westman's Field disguised as sheep.
As brightest dawn from night doth creep.
To send the crimson foe to sleep"

And the Dragon's spells??????

If a simple divination is an mortal bane to great wyrms then again, the flaw is in YOUR game.

You aren't going to ambush a great wyrm with a simple divination, with or without invisible needle.

 

[BryonD]

If those are the kind of replies I'm going to be getting, I guess that means there's no need to continue discussing this.

shrug

Well, if a requirement for discussion is that I must overlook massive flaws in your position then there certainly is no need to continue. So I guess you are correct.

Bye