Complete Mage - Is it out yet?

So if the wizards are polymporhpoed as sheep their disguise skill would be roughly 22 or so(assuming they do not have disguise as a class skill and are getting +2 from somewhere like charisma or a feat.) Taht means an average d20 roll of 10 with the +10 disguise check inherent for polymorph-type magics. A Greay Wyrm Red Dragon would most likely have at the very least +43 from ranks alone, plus his wisdom, and probably some kind of buff.

So he would notice the disguised wizards and see through their disguise at roughly 210 feet away(At the minimum), well out of range of the force needle.

Nope, don't see it happening.
 

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EyeontheMountain said:
So if the wizards are polymporhpoed as sheep their disguise skill would be roughly 22 or so(assuming they do not have disguise as a class skill and are getting +2 from somewhere like charisma or a feat.) Taht means an average d20 roll of 10 with the +10 disguise check inherent for polymorph-type magics. A Greay Wyrm Red Dragon would most likely have at the very least +43 from ranks alone, plus his wisdom, and probably some kind of buff.

So he would notice the disguised wizards and see through their disguise at roughly 210 feet away(At the minimum), well out of range of the force needle.

Nope, don't see it happening.
You make a good point--the sheep thing isn't going to work based on that.

However, the fact remains that any effect that deals effectively-unavoidable damage is problematic. Let's say the dragon sees the group of enemies and wants to fry these puny gnats, so he comes in for a breath attack--if they've readied their force needles, he is likely dead before he even gets it off.
 

AFAIAC, any assertion about something being overpowered based on 1000 NPCs who just happened to pick this feat and gang up on a dragon is not too realistic of a test of what's balanced in a game.

What's balanced is determined by how the game is played. That is, in a party of adventurers going on adventures. If the feat changes the way THAT scenario plays out, you should decide whether or not you want that change in your game and rule accordingly.

I share concerns about the energy orb spells bypassing SR... then again, I hate magic immune golems, so that negates some of my concern. I think in the final analysis, I still might probably rule out energy orbs but allow the much less potent reserve feats as a fallback. If the players run into a highly magic resistant creature, the mage player need not feel totally ineffective. The overall enjoyment level of the game improves, ergo it seems like a win-win scenario to me.
 

Rystil Arden said:
ByronD said:
Massive flaw alert

If those are the kind of replies I'm going to be getting, I guess that means there's no need to continue discussing this.

Now you know why I quit posting to this thread. Other than a select few (Felon, Psion, and Banshee16), these types of posts got old, fast. I got tired of having valid arguements ignored over and over and instead taken to task over what "fantasy literature" inspired D&D.
 

Psion said:
AFAIAC, any assertion about something being overpowered based on 1000 NPCs who just happened to pick this feat and gang up on a dragon is not too realistic of a test of what's balanced in a game.

What's balanced is determined by how the game is played. That is, in a party of adventurers going on adventures. If the feat changes the way THAT scenario plays out, you should decide whether or not you want that change in your game and rule accordingly.

I share concerns about the energy orb spells bypassing SR... then again, I hate magic immune golems, so that negates some of my concern. I think in the final analysis, I still might probably rule out energy orbs but allow the much less potent reserve feats as a fallback. If the players run into a highly magic resistant creature, the mage player need not feel totally ineffective. The overall enjoyment level of the game improves, ergo it seems like a win-win scenario to me.
Also good points. For the record, I'm for the current rendition of the feat--just afraid it could become dangerous if it was strengthened.
 

Twowolves said:
Now you know why I quit posting to this thread. Other than a select few (Felon, Psion, and Banshee16), these types of posts got old, fast. I got tired of having valid arguements ignored over and over and instead taken to task over what "fantasy literature" inspired D&D.
Right.....

And if only it were reality that you had been taken to task over "what 'fantasy literature' inspired D&D" then you'd have a point.

Your claim that there was a paradigm shift was taken to task and rather they try to defend that invalid argument you tried to misrepresent other people's statements.
 

Psion said:
AFAIAC, any assertion about something being overpowered based on 1000 NPCs who just happened to pick this feat and gang up on a dragon is not too realistic of a test of what's balanced in a game.
Correct. Or even just 50.

I share concerns about the energy orb spells bypassing SR...
It is a good point. And the orbs are certainly a much bigger potential issue.

The overall enjoyment level of the game improves, ergo it seems like a win-win scenario to me.
Exactly.
 

BryonD said:
Right.....

And if only it were reality that you had been taken to task over "what 'fantasy literature' inspired D&D" then you'd have a point.

Your claim that there was a paradigm shift was taken to task and rather they try to defend that invalid argument you tried to misrepresent other people's statements.

History lesson for those who didn't read the whole thread:

1) I expressed my opinion regarding the reserve feats, and said they made the game more like Gauntlet and Diablo II.

2) Someone said "D&D ain't literature".

3) I said D&D was once based on fantasy literature.

4) ByronD asked me how it was based on literature.

5) I explained how.

6) He said "no no, how is the magic system based on literature.

7) I explained how it was.

8) He and others repeatedly tried to deny my explanations and turn the discussion to how D&D magic was never like fantasy literature magic in the first place, despite examples to the contrary.

9) I get sick of being accused of misrepresenting others statements and having my examples comparing reserve feats to spells and magic items be mostly ignored and leave these people to their own devices.

I will admit one error, however. I should not have compared these reserve feats to Diablo II. At least in that game, even the zappy attacks drain your mana, a finite reserve of points. In almost every work fantasy lit, magic is somehow taxing, draining, or otherwise limited in it's use. Even Dr Strange gets tired.

The game IS changing, and these feats take it a lot further down that path. If people doesn't want to see it or admit it, fine, they are welcome to their opinions. Just don't try to tell me I'm not entitled to my own.
 

Twowolves said:
The game IS changing, and these feats take it a lot further down that path. If people doesn't want to see it or admit it, fine, they are welcome to their opinions. Just don't try to tell me I'm not entitled to my own.
For the record, if it's an opinion, no one has to "admit" anything. You run to the safety of the word "opinion" when challenged, but you present yours as facts everyone else would be a fool to disagree with.

Pick a stance. Either it's incontrovertable fact that reserve feats and the warlock are the shape of 4E, or it's your opinion that these mark a bad direction for the game.

The reason you're getting so much heat is that you're playing both sides of the fence.

Add to that the fact that you insist that supplemental materials from one version of the game are automatically brought into the next version of the game despite the fact that this didn't happen with 2E or 3E, and it's no wonder you're getting slapped around a bit here.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
Add to that the fact that you insist that supplemental materials from one version of the game are automatically brought into the next version of the game despite the fact that this didn't happen with 2E or 3E, and it's no wonder you're getting slapped around a bit here.

To be fair, while it's not automatically true, it's certainly a recognizable source for influences. For example, the much rued Attacks of Opportunity showed up in Combat & Tactics for 2e first.
 

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