Complete Mage - Is it out yet?

[Rystil Arden]

I haven't seen any small bad guy groups in published adventures that have 30 or more 5th-level wizards. It takes a very, very large city to amass that kind of force, and I imagine most of the wizard's guild would find something better to do that day, as they're not silly enough to think that just because they've each got these little 3d4 water pistols that the great wyrm is as good as dead. He's got a little more going for him than just SR and natural armor. Trust me, it's just not a very good scenario.

That's because the baddies tend to be Fighters and Rogues more often, but most of them definitely have members in that number, even for small and relatively unimportant enemy groups that would be encountered in a level 7ish adventure (to scale it down just a bit--in a level 3ish SCAP adventure, a minor and relatively worthless group of goblins had ~10 4th-level Adepts and many more combat-centred goblins).

A dragon may have more going for it than SR and AC, but none of that will protect it from an at-will touch attack attack that deals force damage with no SR allowed (though remember, this is hypothetical, as currently we have a quite fine non-touch attack force effect). Obviously it can sit in its lair behind layers of traps, but these guys would be effective in preventing it from going on the offensive.

 

[Felon]

A dragon may have more going for it than SR and AC, but none of that will protect it from an at-will touch attack attack that deals force damage with no SR allowed.

Man, you're still trying to support this? Uggh.

Quite a great deal of a dragon's resources would protect him from wizards trying to pelt him with a feeble 3d4 damage attack with minimal range. The wyrm would annihlate them utterly, probably halving their number's with a single blast of breath. They're a minimal threat.

I'm beginning to think you must be kidding, because you've had sufficient time to reconsider how this is a completely unworkable scenario and that these 30 doomed wizards would never get the drop on the wyrm, much less drive him into hiding. For that matter, I don't know how you could find this one unlikely, impractical scenario provides sufficient evidence that a 1d4/level ability that requires a normal attack roll is on par with a 1d6/level ability that requires a touch attack roll.

 

[Rystil Arden]

What are you talking about? Quite a great deal of a dragon's resources would protect him from wizards trying to pelt him with a feeble 3d4 damage attack with minimal range. The wyrm would annihlate them utterly, probably halving their number's with a single blast of breath. They're a minimal threat.

I'm beginning to think you must be kidding, because you've had sufficient time to reconsider how this is a lousy, horrible, unworkable scenario and that these 30 doomed wizards would never get the drop on the wyrm, much less drive him into hiding. For that matter, I don't know how you could find this one ill-conceived, unlikely, impractical scenario provides sufficient evidence that a 1d4/level ability that requires a normal attack roll is on par with a 1d6/level ability that requires a touch attack roll.

Please, there's no need to continue like that--we're discussing this here, so let's avoid posts where 50% of the words are taken up by insults and appeal to ridicule fallacy.

Let's say we've got a Great Wyrm Blue. The wizards can easily stand such that he's not going to take out very many in one breath weapon. If you assume large killings on the part of the dragon, that's fine too, though we may want to knock the wizards' number up to 50 in that case. 50 will kill the thing in two rounds without casualties and can easily do so in three rounds even losing 10 or 15 men per round.

EDIT: Based on your last edit, I think you've forgotten that I'm explaining why the force attack would be overpowered as a touch attack, not in its current incarnation as a non-touch.

 

[Felon]

Please, there's no need to continue like that--we're discussing this here, so let's avoid posts where 50% of the words are taken up by random insult words.

I'm sorry, but your scenario is half-baked, and there's just no way to tip-toe around that. You may be a fine person, but the scenario is just not thought out that well. That you don't own up to that after all these posts, that you just dig in your heels like this scenario really amounts to something with pragmatic value, compounds that geometrically.

Let's say we've got a Great Wyrm Blue. The wizards can easily stand such that he's not going to take out very many in one breath weapon. If you assume large killings on the part of the dragon, that's fine too, though we may want to knock the wizards' number up to 50 in that case. 50 will kill the thing in two rounds without casualties and can easily do so in three rounds even losing 10 or 15 men per round.

Most likely, they'll stand wherever the wyrm wants them to stand. Since he's the one with superior resources--divination magic, terrain-controlling magic, you name it--he's the one who will dictate on what terms the battle takes place. Don't you get that? He doesn't even have to let them stay close enough to use the crappy needle. He can kill them from hundreds of feet away if he pleases. Then take into account all the spells he'll have, all the magic items he'll have--artifacts even--all the ways a wyrm could heal or buff himself, all the defensive wards and glyphs that would kill them off before they could even get their crummy 7.5 danage attack off, and it's just flat-out obvious that you're sitting on a stack of dead wizards.

And then we could go into the logistical problems with amassing 50 or 100 5th-level wizards. Bust out your DMG again.

EDIT: Based on your last edit, I think you've forgotten that I'm explaining why the force attack would be overpowered as a touch attack, not in its current incarnation as a non-touch.

You've utterly failed to explain why a force would be overpowered as a ranged touch spell while an energy attack isn't. Energy resistance isn't universal.

 

[BryonD]

How are they going to make the DC35 will save to get within range?

I'm certainly not willing to assume that one, much less 50, humanoids of any nature can just walk up to less than 30 feet from a great wyrm blue (or even much lesser dragon) so as to get off an attack in the first place. If we assume that 5% make their save then you only need 1,000 5th level wizards to get 50 of them making an attack.
1,000 5th level fighters with bows, 2 +1 arrows each and rapid shot would land 100 hits in one round for 550 points of damage assuming none of them gain a STR bonus with their bows.
(Edit: Not that I don't agree with Felon that neither this nor the wizard scenario would ever come close to happening)



I also agree that they should be spell-like abilities, for flavor as much as anything. And don't see ignoring SR as a good thing. Though I still don't consider that a deal breaker.

 

[Rystil Arden]

How are they going to make the DC35 will save to get within range?

I'm certainly not willing to assume that one, much less 50, humanoids of any nature can just walk up to less than 30 feet from a great wyrm blue (or even much lesser dragon) so as to get off an attack in the first place. If we assume that 5% make their save then you only need 1,000 5th level wizards to get 50 of them making an attack.
1,000 5th level fighters with bows, 2 +1 arrows each and rapid shot would land 100 hits in one round for 550 points of damage assuming none of them gain a STR bonus with their bows.
(Edit: Not that I don't agree with Felon that neither this nor the wizard scenario would ever come close to happening)



I also agree that they should be spell-like abilities, for flavor as much as anything. And don't see ignoring SR as a good thing. Though I still don't consider that a deal breaker.

Heroes' Feast

 

[BryonD]

When did the 11th level cleric show up?



And is it not ok for the wizards to achieve the same result as the equal level fighters?

 

[Rystil Arden]

I'm sorry, but your scenario is half-baked, and there's just no way to tip-toe around that. You may be a fine person, but the scenario is just not thought out that well. That you don't own up to that after all these posts, that you just dig in your heels like this scenario really amounts to something with pragmatic value, compounds that geometrically.



Most likely, they'll stand wherever the wyrm wants them to stand. Since he's the one with superior resources--divination magic, terrain-controlling magic, you name it--he's the one who will dictate on what terms the battle takes place. Don't you get that? He doesn't even have to let them stay close enough to use the crappy needle. He can kill them from hundreds of feet away if he pleases. Then take into account all the spells he'll have, all the magic items he'll have--artifacts even--all the ways a wyrm could heal or buff himself, all the defensive wards and glyphs that would kill them off before they could even pop a shot off, and it's just flat-out obvious that you're sitting on a stack of dead wizards.

And then we could go into the logistical problems with amassing 50 or 100 5th-level wizards. Bust out your DMG again.


You've utterly failed to explain why a force would be overpowered as a ranged touch spell while an energy attack isn't. Energy resistance isn't universal.

Energy resistance is accessible. The difference is that force + no save + no SR + touch attack (effectively no attack roll needed in thsi case) is unavoidable. Energy attacks at least he can cast a quick level 2 Energy Resistance spell and be done with them and immune to all 50 of the attacks.

As to controlling the battle--that's true if the dragon is hiding in his lair or attacking these wizards. The problem is when the wizards are attacking him while he's going after something else. Let's say he comes to eat soem sheep and finds out that there's also 30-50 massmorphed Wizards set up around him and spread out with Heroes' Feast up. Assuming that he doesn't flee (which just proves he is outmatched), what does the dragon do?

By the way--perhaps we should fork a new thread?

 

[Rystil Arden]

When did the 11th level cleric show up?



And is it not ok for the wizards to achieve the same result as the equal level fighters?

1000 >> 50

The 11th-level Cleric is below standard max level for any Metropolis. Frankly, against a CR 21+ dragon, I won't begrudge the Wizards that. Or the Fighters if they like.

 

[BryonD]

Do great wyrms just go blindly scooping up random sheep herds in your campaigns?
In mine the sheep (or whatever) are pretty much brought to the dragon when you get anywhere near this power level.