Complete Mage - Is it out yet?

Twowolves said:
But, it's not better. One a rare occaision (almost completely at the whim of the DM) the spell does an average of an extra 6 points of damage. The feat can also do more damage the more potent spell held in reserve, so both are potentially more damaging under different circumstances. And Call Lightning doesn't effectively have a larger area. I was mistaken about it's area:



So, it is essentially a 6 square vertical line, vs a 4 square horizontal line. It's a lot easier to catch multiple foes in a horizontal line than a vertial one, so the difference in area isn't really a factor.

Once again, the comparison is a 3rd level spell, 1 round casting time, does 3d6 electrical damage in a 30' vertical line per round for caster level rounds, at medium range, and has a Reflex save for half damage, at the cost of one 3rd level spell slot, vs a feat that does 3d6 electrical damage (in this case) in a 20' line, no save, no roll to hit, at will, as a standard action. AND it has a constant, secondary effect (+1 CL for electrical spells, is it?) So far, the only way Call Lightning is better is at range, everything else is worse. Is it really any different if we compare Scortching Ray and some of these feats? 4d6 fire, ranged touch, no save, vs xd6 at will?

I certainly don't ever wish to reduce the game to damage dealt and nothing more. Don't misread me. I have issues with these feats precisely because they make damage more abundantly accessable for the very classes that already had the lion's share of the magical damage output capacity.



So, if the zappy feat only does 10 dmg in this case, how much will the same caster's magic missile do? 6-15, average of 10.5. Same exact damage, but now the caster has to give up something to get the effect: a spell slot. Also as I understand it, the Stormbolt feat has no save.

You mention bows and crossbows, but they can be sundered, they can be disarmed, they require ammunition (which is still finite, until they design a feat that says otherwise). Your arguement seems to be that fighters have better damage output potential, but that's nothing new. Putting a fighter and a wizard 20' apart and letting them slug it out always plays to the fighter, even in previous editions. The wizard's real special ability is the ability to break the rules everyone else has to play with, not damage output. Wizards can fly, turn people to stone, disappear, conjure monsters, etc etc etc. In a different setup, the wizard can have other spells prepared and in place to make this mental exercise completely swing the other way. Comparing zappy feat damage output to mundane combat is apples and oranges, hence the reason I compared them to other spells.

I find it almost amusing how many people have attributed all sorts of untrue motives and sentiments to my objections to these feats. I'm no WotC hater, I'm not a 3rd ed basher, I'm not a "4th ed is coming, the sky is falling!" doomsayer. I'm none of these things, despite some people's efforts to paint me as such.

You've just done exactly the same thing. It's been a few days since I posted that argument, but I don't believe I said anything about you being a 3E basher, or WotC.

As to the other comments, I'm not making any kind of statement about wizard vs. fighter damage output. What I am doing is pointing out that the reserve feat isn't making the wizard more powerful than a regular wizard. Sure, crossbows can be disarmed or sundered. They can also be picked up again. Casting spells can be disrupted. And crossbow bolts are far easier to replace than either memorized spells, or wands. What's the going rate? 1 GP for 20 bolts or something?

As to the Stormbolt example you point out, thanks for taking it further. You make the case that the wizard can get better damage from the magic missile spell, and it requires a spell slot. Well.....so does Stormbolt. You need to keep your lightning spell memorized, thus using up a spell slot, or the ability doesn't work.

Banshee
 

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Rystil Arden said:
I forget--does it allow SR? If not, it ignores energy resistance and SR, with no save and could be about right.

Reserve feats grant supernatural abilities, so none of them are affected by SR. So, relatively speaking the needle still comes up more than a tad short. We're talking really pitiful damage here, after all.
 

Felon said:
Reserve feats grant supernatural abilities, so none of them are affected by SR. So, relatively speaking the needle still comes up more than a tad short. We're talking really pitiful damage here, after all.
Even so, 1d4 force per spell level with a ranged touch and no SR would be overpowered in my mind (and yes, I alternately ban Orb of Force or require SR), as it is damage that is virtually unstoppable at sufficient level.

If you changed this to a ranged touch attack, one hundred first level Wizards with this feat would soundly destroy a Great Wyrm dragon of your choice.
 

Rystil Arden said:
Even so, 1d4 force per spell level with a ranged touch and no SR would be overpowered in my mind (and yes, I alternately ban Orb of Force or require SR), as it is damage that is virtually unstoppable at sufficient level.

If you changed this to a ranged touch attack, one hundred first level Wizards with this feat would soundly destroy a Great Wyrm dragon of your choice.
100 5th level wizards. And 95 of them would run away before getting close enough to attack, leaving the other 5 to run away out of common sense rather than dragon fear.

But I'm just being picky....


Seriously, the lack of SR may be a real issue to consider. Though in typical circumstances the low damage and opportunity cost should still keep things in check.
 

BryonD said:
100 5th level wizards. And 95 of them would run away before getting close enough to attack, leaving the other 5 to run away out of common sense rather than dragon fear.

But I'm just being picky....


Seriously, the lack of SR may be a real issue to consider. Though in typical circumstances the low damage and opportunity cost should still keep things in check.
Ah yes, the level requirement is an issue.

It needn't be 100 if they're 5th level, then. 30 will do the trick. 100 could kill it in one round before it could take a turn, though.
 

Rystil Arden said:
Even so, 1d4 force per spell level with a ranged touch and no SR would be overpowered in my mind (and yes, I alternately ban Orb of Force or require SR), as it is damage that is virtually unstoppable at sufficient level.
Your position doesn't make a lot of sense. You say a ranged touch force attack that allows no SR is overpowered, while an energy a ranged touch energy attack that allows no SR and does more damage isn't, even though all creatures who just happen to lack the requisite energy resistance will also find it to be "unstoppable"--and more painful.

Rystil Arden said:
Ah yes, the level requirement is an issue. It needn't be 100 if they're 5th level, then. 30 will do the trick. 100 could kill it in one round before it could take a turn, though.
100 or 30, it is a silly scenario lacking practical value, as amassing that many people around your dinner table poses a bit of a logistical challenge.
 
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BryonD said:
Seriously, the lack of SR may be a real issue to consider. Though in typical circumstances the low damage and opportunity cost should still keep things in check.
That and the logistical problems with getting 100 players huddled around your dinner table (although it appears we're down to 30 now).

The reserve abilities shouldn't be supernatural IMO. That offers all kinds of new considerations. For one thing, consider what it costs to make a spell silent or still, which are benefits that a supernatural ability get by default. Supernatural abilities can even be used while grappled with no Concentration check. They're true super-powers.
 

Felon said:
Your position doesn't make a lot of sense. You say a ranged touch force attack that allows no SR is overpowered, while an energy a ranged touch energy attack that allows no SR and does more damage isn't, even though all creatures who just happen to lack the requisite energy resistance will also find it to be "unstoppable"--and more painful.


100 or 30, it is a silly scenario lacking practical value, as amassing that many people around your dinner table poses a bit of a logistical challenge.
I don't like the no-SR on any of them, frankly.

As to the 'silly' scenario, it isn't silly at all. It is a practical issue on why the NPCs can't just kill the Great Wyrm dragon (Based on the average NPCs per settlement in the DMG 30 5th-level Wizards is a trivial expense for a large kingdom that contains a metropolis and wants to eliminate a powerful enemy--heck, relatively small bad guy groups in published adventures have more personnel than that).
 

Felon said:
That and the logistical problems with getting 100 players huddled around your dinner table (although it appears we're down to 30 now).

The reserve abilities shouldn't be supernatural IMO. That offers all kinds of new considerations. For one thing, consider what it costs to make a spell silent or still, which are benefits that a supernatural ability get by default. Supernatural abilities can even be used while grappled with no Concentration check. They're true super-powers.
I tend to agree. I'm definitely adding Reserve Feats to my game, but in addition to adding the Reflex save to Storm Bolt, I'm making them SLAs like the Warlock invocations. I'd allow meta-SLA feats and Ability Focus to work on them too.
 

Rystil Arden said:
I don't like the no-SR on any of them, frankly.

As to the 'silly' scenario, it isn't silly at all. It is a practical issue on why the NPCs can't just kill the Great Wyrm dragon (Based on the average NPCs per settlement in the DMG 30 5th-level Wizards is a trivial expense for a large kingdom that contains a metropolis and wants to eliminate a powerful enemy--heck, relatively small bad guy groups in published adventures have more personnel than that).

I haven't seen any small bad guy groups in published adventures that have 30 or more 5th-level wizards. It takes a very, very large city to amass that kind of force, and I imagine most of the wizard's guild would find something better to do that day, as they're not silly enough to think that just because they've each got these little 3d4 water pistols that the great wyrm is as good as dead. He's got a little more going for him than just SR and natural armor. Trust me, it's just not a very good scenario.
 
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