Complete Scoundrel gives alignments for Batman, James Bond, Riddick, and more...

[ivocaliban]

Always dangerous talking about the alignments of real-world figures... so I won't. However, the point I was trying to get at is that the lords in the Robin Hood example were basically using their authority to force the peasants to pay excessive taxes. By contrast, Gates and Trump, despite some questionable business practices, don't go that far. You never actually have to buy the latest Windows... you can choose to try to manage without.

The musing about Trump's alignment was really meant to be rhetorical and amusing. I generally agree with the original statement.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Am I the only one who thinks Spider-man is Lawful Good, rather than Neutral Good? What am I not getting?

 

[Felon]

Quite a few of those characters don't rely on trickery or their wits or operate outside societal norms or anything else that might be commonly associated with the word "scoundrel."

Care to share which don't fulfill any of the criteria that you specified? The only character I see that might be questionable is Lucy Westenra from Dracula, and even then I suppose as a sexually insatiable vampiress that she might make the cut.

EDIT--Unfortunately, Dick Tracy is only familiar to many folks today through the crappy Warren Beaty movie, thinking of him much as they would Joe Friday, but during Chester Gould's run he was a cagey character that matched his foes trick for trick as well as bullet for bullet.

 

[Aeric]

If the moral structures and behavioral tendencies of interesting, complicated characters can not be satisfyingly expressed through the system, it's probably a bad system to use as any kind of roleplaying guide.

Which is exactly why alignments should reflect character actions and philosophies, not the other way around. Sure, a player may put LG on his character sheet and proceed to act in a manner that he feels is LG, but if I as the DM see it as being anything but LG, that's going to be how the game elements (Detect spells, magic items, etc.) are going to react to him as. It's like the end of Falling Down where Michael Douglas is confronted by the cops and he asks, "I'm the bad guy?" He was doing what he thought was right, when really he had become a sociopath.

Some people say that alignments are subjective, while others say they are totally set in stone. I say they are both.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Am I the only one who thinks Spider-man is Lawful Good, rather than Neutral Good? What am I not getting?

He regularly breaks the law when he feels that his goals are more important. (The same reason that Batman shouldn't be Lawful Good, incidentally.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Care to share which don't fulfill any of the criteria that you specified? The only character I see that might be questionable is Lucy Westenra from Dracula, and even then I suppose as a sexually insatiable vampiress that she might make the cut.

The only major tricksy thing Odysseus does is fool a cyclops in one of his many adventures. He's a man of action, not a man of wit.

Boba Fett doesn't do anything that suggests that he's clever or tricky. He mostly stands around in a suit of armor. Frankly, I suspect he's watching porn in there most of the time.

Magneto is a brilliant and charismatic leader who relies on his formidable powers and his ability to influence others in the same way a military or political leader does. He does not routinely dupe or deceive.

Lara Croft is physically active and is a good fit for the Complete Adventurer, but acrobatics does not make one a scoundrel.

Lucy Westerna is an extremely strange choice. There doesn't seem to be much basis for calling her a scoundrel whatsoever.

 

[dragonlordofpoondari]

The only major tricksy thing Odysseus does is fool a cyclops in one of his many adventures. He's a man of action, not a man of wit.

Have to respectfully disagree with you there, Whizbang. Throughout the Illiad, Odysseus is hailed as being the most clever of all. He hatches the Trojan Horse plan. He dressed up in disguise a lot. He stole King Rhesus' horses. He was always coming up with clever schemes. Look it up. I'm not sure he should be considered a scoundrel, but he was always considered a brilliant strategist.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Have to respectfully disagree with you there, Whizbang. Throughout the Illiad, Odysseus is hailed as being the most clever of all. He hatches the Trojan Horse plan. He dressed up in disguise a lot. He stole King Rhesus' horses. He was always coming up with clever schemes. Look it up. I'm not sure he should be considered a scoundrel, but he was always considered a brilliant strategist.

OK, we agree, I just stated it poorly.

Simply using one's head doesn't make one a scoundrel, IMO. The Trojan Horse certainly was clever, and its familiarity made me incorrectly discount it.

 

[Felon]

The only major tricksy thing Odysseus does is fool a cyclops in one of his many adventures. He's a man of action, not a man of wit.

As Dragonlord explains in detail, Odysseus is a master trickster and schemer. Being a man of action is not mutually exclusive with being tricky.

Boba Fett doesn't do anything that suggests that he's clever or tricky. He mostly stands around in a suit of armor. Frankly, I suspect he's watching porn in there most of the time.

In the movies, Fett does jack, and I've always wondered what made such an inactive character so popular, but he's certainly very much the scoundrel, as the galaxy's best bounty hunter would kinda have to be.

Magneto is a brilliant and charismatic leader who relies on his formidable powers and his ability to influence others in the same way a military or political leader does. He does not routinely dupe or deceive.

Doesn't a brilliant and charismatic leader make the perfect scoundrel if he's using his followers as disposable pawns? Maybe comics-Magneto lacks subtlety, but if we're talking movie-Magneto, I'd definitely go with scoundrel. He manipulates and deceives the heck out of his mutant lackeys--catch that "he's mine" look he shoots Mystique after he sweet-talks Pyro in X2. He forges an alliance of convenience with the X-Men and tricks them into helping him kill all humans on the planet. But regardless, manipulation and deception aren't the sole defining traits of a scoundrel, as you previously acknowledged. He definitely "operates outside societal norms", which was one of your stated criteria.

Lara Croft is physically active and is a good fit for the Complete Adventurer, but acrobatics does not make one a scoundrel.

She robs tombs for a living, often an illegal endeavor. She's sneaky, survives by her wits, operates outside societal norms....c'mon.

Lucy Westerna is an extremely strange choice. There doesn't seem to be much basis for calling her a scoundrel whatsoever.

Yeah, that one I don't get.

 

[Felon]

OK, we agree, I just stated it poorly.

Simply using one's head doesn't make one a scoundrel, IMO. The Trojan Horse certainly was clever, and its familiarity made me incorrectly discount it.

For those interested parties, this is from CS's opening section "What Makes a Scoundrel?"

Scoundrels break rules.
Scoundrels think on their feet.
Scoundrels avoid fair fights.
Scoundrels know their enemies' weaknesses.
Scoundrels don't restrict themselves.
Scoundrels get dirty.
Scoundrels apply themselves.
Scoundrels rely on instinct.
Scoundrels are not all corrupt.

Each of those is a heading followed by a brief explanation. Note they are not saying "if you apply yourself, you're a scoundrel". It's more of a scale where hits exceed misses by a certain margin.