Completely off topic: considering a divorce and need any advice out there

[Jack7]

A happy marriage is a goal, it is a result, what may come from people who care about each other and support each other. You and your wife both seem to have individual problems - the happy marriage may come about if you team up and address the roots of those problems, not the other way around.

I very much agree with this.

She learned a very simple lesson - you cannot die from embarrassment.

And this. But your marriage could die from being too embarrassed to try what might work. Never be afraid to do whatever is necessary in the pursuit of what is good. If it costs you a little pride, that's a price worth paying if it works.

The marriage, if you and she want it to work, is the important thing. The work to get there, that's the price of doing business.

I don't know if this will work, but it has been a much better life for the both of us, starting on Sunday. I only hope it stays like this.

Sometimes all hell breaks loose before things change for the better. And sometimes, ironically, that is very helpful. I've been there. And like you I preferred written communications til things improved. Kept things defused while we were going through our arguing stage. And after all, I am a writer, and I don't like arguing to escalate matters. Only arguing if it will actually solve a problem.

But remember, experimenting with different possible solutions is part of the process. Not all will work, and maybe not all will fail. But she's trying to experiment too. Believe it or not this is a good sign on her part. Shows she's trying. I wouldn't dismiss this sign.

I'll suggest an experiment to you that might work. When you get together for the first few weeks or months after your big blow-up don't talk at all about what's wrong with your marriage. And what you don't like about each other or your situation. Only talk about what you like about each other, and what you like about your marriage.

It's a little bit like a ball player who has struck out several times at bat. If each time he goes up to the plate he's thinking about what he did wrong last time, and about striking out, chances are he will again. Instead he should think about the last time he hit well, and what he was doing to hit well. And do those things.

Next time you guys are up at the plate, see if you can both agree to swing like you mean to hit well (just not each other), rather than to strike out. It works if you can make it a habit. Concentrate on what you're doing right, not what you're doing wrong.

Then later on, once things cool and emotions are controlled, then calmly and reasonably discuss your problems. Then you can do that objectively and without concentrating on the problems like they're all you have. You'll already be in the habit of hitting base-runs. You can then discuss your marital problems like they are just problems in your marriage, rather than discussing your marriage like it is the problem.

Anyways, good luck and Godspeed to you both.

 

[Umbran]

It's a little bit like a ball player who has struck out several times at bat. If each time he goes up to the plate he's thinking about what he did wrong last time, and about striking out, chances are he will again. Instead he should think about the last time he hit well, and what he was doing to hit well. And do those things.

I would like to add something. There's an aspect of, "Whatever you do, do not think about an elephant," to this. Both of you have been hurt, and maybe have been unintentionally hurting each other for a while now. That's going to mean you both have habits - trains of thought, automatic reactions. These things are not apt to work in your favor right now.

You may have to consciously choose to avoid such habits, to stop yourself, shut your mouth, and think for a moment.

Something that might help here (a trick that's good on message boards as well, come to think of it) - whenever something is said that stings, stop, and consider if there could possibly be any way to interpret it that stings less. Take everything said in its best possible interpretation, rather than its worst. Even if it goes against your immediate reaction, assume your partner is not actively trying to hurt you.

 

[Fast Learner]

I'm glad to hear that the "as if" technique has brought you a measure of peace. I used it in one relationship and the results were fascinating.

The authors of the book After the Affair (a great book on relationships regardless of whether there was ever an affair or not) points out something that I'd never considered and that I've found to be incredibly useful ever since.

They point out that whatever traits your partner has that attracted you in the first place, the flip side of these very traits often cause great difficulties in the relationship.

For example, you might have fallen for your partner because s/he's incredibly spontaneous, bringing joyful surprises again and again. Once the relationship is established, though, while you're still enjoying the spontaneity you find yourself frustrated that s/he never seems willing to sit down and plan out your finances or figure out your Christmas plans or what have you. Of course s/he doesn't want to do those things, s/he's incredibly spontaneous; the flip side of spontaneity is not making plans!

One of the exercises in the book is to make a list of all of the things that attracted (and attract) you to your partner, and then for each one write down what the flip sides of that trait might be. Then take a look a those flip sides and see how closely they match the things you're frustrated about in the relationship. In the two different relationships I've done this exercise with, both of us found stunning matches.

From there you can learn to first accept that if your partner is X in a way that you like, s/he's very likely the flip side of X in a way you don't like. With this knowledge you can tackle the actual problems, all the while recognizing that some of your issues are things that you'll just need to accept on some level if you're also going to have the enjoyable side of the trait.

It's not a panacea, but I highly, highly recommend this exercise for anyone in a relationship that has some stress (visible or lurking beneath the covers).


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/After-Affair-Healing-Rebuilding-Unfaithful/dp/0060928174/]After the Affair[/ame]

 

[Deset Gled]

One piece of advice I can give you is to try and look at thing as your wife sees them. Some of the things you've said so far sound very well intentioned, but will not seem that way to your wife.

I'm going to go through a few of the events you've related to us and show you how they (may) seem to your wife. This generally means spinning them to make you look like as big of a jerk as possible. You may find this pretty insulting. If it upsets you, or if you just don't take heavy critisism very well, please don't read any further. If you want to see how you (may) look through your wife's eyes, please consider the following examples:

I'm posting from home right now. ... I said "I won't be in your way, I'm just here for some of my things".

The moment she left, I made sure she heard me locking and chaining the door with her still in the hallway. That was proof enough to me (moments later) that I'm still extremely angry with her. I know now it was an immature reaction. Anyway, she left and I saw her drive away.

Your wife doesn't see you as immature. She sees you as a liar, a thief, and potentially being criminally negligent. You said you were going to pick up "some things" and you took her home! Even worse, you locked your own baby out of the house! What would have happened if you wife ran out of food or clean clothes for the baby? How could your wife properly take care of the kid when she's locked out of the place where all the supplies are? What would have happened if she had no place to stay for the night?

{On a note not coming from you wife's POV: this is the type of thing that is seriously going to bite you in the ass if you actually do end up getting a divorce.}

I deemed it "safe" to throw out some trash, do some dishes, and basically try to make it a bit more pleasant in the condo for her and the baby when they get home. Now, I kind of regret doing that, because if my intent is for her to notice the things I do when I'm not around anymore, the impact of the things I do is lessened if they're actually done. Oh well, it's not like I'm going to put the trash back now.

I took out the anniversary gift I got her, and displayed it on the dining room table.

Why does a woman who has to stay home all day with a baby (doing all of the clothes cleaning, bottle cleaning, diaper changing, preparing food for herself and the baby, etc etc) care if you straightened up the house a little? Her entire life is a continuous string of taking care of your child from one day to the next. Doing a load of dishes is not going make her life notably better. On the surface you're being insensitive to her needs. But going out of the way to force her to acknowledge what you do makes things that much worse.

Me: I want you to call your friends and have dinner with them tonight. It's been far too long since you've seen them, and they'd love to see the baby. It would do you good to go out and socialize with some other people. I know when I went to the Ren Faire and hung out with Matt for a few hours it was very refreshing and made me feel really good.

You start off sounding like you're being nice and telling your wife to take a night off. Unfortunately, she still has to take care of the baby. You cannot simply hang out and socialize while you're still in charge of an infant. If you seriously meant to make things easier for your wife, you needed to offer to take the baby (or get a babysitter, or arrange for the baby to be dropped off at a relative's house, etc). To tell her that she should take the baby along on her night off makes it seem like you don't value the work she does when she cares for the baby. In her eyes, you see her as nothing but a nanny to care for your offspring. The fact that you remind her of the time you spent with friends (without the baby) and how great of a time you had only makes things worse.

Her: I am outside now to talk to you

Me: I want it to work between us, but that's not going to happen right now.
There's too much anger, sadness, and resentment.
We need time apart. If we are going to work, I need you to realize my value.

Your wife offered to stop and talk things through with you. You turned her down because you decided there was no value in it. You have just told your wife that you are no longer interested in making things better. You may claim otherwise, but this action speaks louder than most of your words.

Also, you seem to be really big on this issue of not being "valued" in the relationship, but the only thing you've mentioned doing so far in this regard are basic chores. Your value in a relationship is measured by the happiness that you give the other person, not the deeds you do. By continuing to focus on what you feel you deserve, you're only going to push your wife farther away.

... I just walked out. ... I only left the car there because my Wife had the baby. If it had been just her and I, I would have taken the car at that point and left her there.

I ended up getting picked up by the cops...

If you told this to your wife, it is the same as flat out telling her you care nothing for her and only care about the baby. That is not an easy statement to take back. Also, you need to realize that walking home in the cold does not make you a martyr; it just makes you stubborn.

{I also can't help but wonder: why did the cops pick you up, anyway? Is walking around the streets of New Jersey a crime now?}

---

Hopefully, this can give you some insight into how things looks from your wife's POV. I apologize if I have been overly hurtful, but I believe it is valuable to realize how some of these things look from the outside. If you find this more painful than hurtful, PM me and I will delete the post from the thread.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Great post, Deset Gled. The only thing I would change is your own apology for possibly being hurtful and offering to delete the post.

Krunchyfrogg, I expect what Deset Gled posted made you uncomfortable, and that is to be expected, but if you cannot face up to what it says, you will have little hope of working through the problems in your relationship. Any therapist will probably try to bring out these same things and if you avoid them, perhaps out of embarassment or from trying to make yourself look better, then you won't be getting what you really need from any form of therapy.

At some point very soon, when the two of you are talking and not already angry with each other, gently ask your wife one simple question: "what do you need?" Listen to her answer. Don't respond, don't start formulating a response in your head, just listen and think about what she says.

 

[Mark Chance]

My thoughts about marriage from a man's perspective.

 

[krunchyfrogg]

Krunchyfrogg, I expect what Deset Gled posted made you uncomfortable, and that is to be expected, but if you cannot face up to what it says, you will have little hope of working through the problems in your relationship. Any therapist will probably try to bring out these same things and if you avoid them, perhaps out of embarassment or from trying to make yourself look better, then you won't be getting what you really need from any form of therapy.

I know that I have plenty of faults as well, and it's interesting to see things in the worst possible light. It does make me feel a bit uncomfortable, but that's actually a good thing. Thank you.

I know I need to face my own demons, and I know I can't change her. I just wish things were nicer.

Today, I offered to turn off my phone when it's not needed (work/alarm clock) so that I'd be ridding myself of a distraction (I have been diagnosed with ADD), after forgetting that she changed the date on a visit to the pediatrician (I had it written down for Tuesday, but it was changed to Thursday, I'm not sure when). Unfortunately, I can't get out of work early on either day to go with them.

 

[Jack7]

I know that I have plenty of faults as well, and it's interesting to see things in the worst possible light. It does make me feel a bit uncomfortable, but that's actually a good thing. Thank you.

I know I need to face my own demons, and I know I can't change her. I just wish things were nicer.

It's a brave and honest man who can face his own faults realistically and pragmatically. Not only for his own good, but for the good of others. Nothing to be ashamed at there. Work on what you can do to control and improve yourself, and allow her to do the same for herself.

With a little time and patience with each other things can change. Neither of you will ever be perfect, but then again neither of you need to be to make a marriage work. You just have to be kind to each other and improve over time. You'll both make mistakes, be honest about that, but when you're doing more right than wrong then that won't matter as much.

Keep working at it and ask her to help you improve, and tell her you'll help her improve, but in a kind and patient, rather than a hostile and demanding fashion. And compliment what she does right, and encourage more of what works right between you.

And when you're not working (as in your job), then take her and the child out and have some fun as a family. Fun kills anxiety, fear, and anger. As a matter of fact have fun at home. And with just her. Relax some. This won't be cured overnight.

But fun, kindness, patience, politeness, optimism, love.
They cure a host of ills. And that's just the truth of it.

Godspeed and good luck to ya both, and to your child.

 

[Ghostwind]

Any updates on this?

My own divorce became official on November 3rd. I just found out yesterday.

 

[krunchyfrogg]

Any updates on this?

My own divorce became official on November 3rd. I just found out yesterday.

Well, we're trying to work it out. We have good days and bad days. She actually cracked a little bit and agreed to see a therapist with me, it's now just a matter of finding one who's on my plan and getting a time where we can both make it.

Thanks again everybody.