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Confirm or Deny: D&D4e would be going strong had it not been titled D&D

Was the demise of 4e primarily caused by the attachment to the D&D brand?

  • Confirm (It was a solid game but the name and expectations brought it down)

    Votes: 87 57.6%
  • Deny (The fundamental game was flawed which caused its demise)

    Votes: 64 42.4%

So you are saying that, in your opinion, it is impossible for people to casually engage in conversations about any of these things, because others have done so in a vitriolic way?

You, know, I am entertaining the possibility that the vitriol you perceive in others might not be original to them... :/

Wow.

1) A guy posts as blatant an edition-warring screed as possible, replete with (a) all of the boilerplate stuff from way-back-when and (b) incendiary, dismissive language (just a taste of which I've quoted above).

2) This is, of course (as it always is) not in a thread that is about why 4e sucks.

3) One of those tenets of "why 4e sucks" is the infamous dissociative (now dissociated) mechanics edition-war blast. So naturally he includes it.

4) Conversation naturally dovetails, in a non-incendiary way, into the nature of dissociated mechanics (as it always does...as I've been involved in tons of them at this point...CAGI or HP will find its way to the table soon enough!).

5) I find this amusing because it reminds me of 2009 and post as such thinking that it may elicit a few chuckles for folks (on both/all sides of the edition war...I guess not).

6) Somehow "the vitriol I perceive in others (eg the edition-war screed author) might not be original to them" Dot dot dot.

7) Hence, LOGICALLY, I'm the vitriolic party here.

That is next level rhetoric/reframing. Cue the Monty Python boys.

Not going down this rabbit hole. Enjoy your benign conversation about dissociated mechanics.
 

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Guys, no one is coming out as the rational or non-vitriolic party at this point. Trust me, people coming into the thread this far in are taking one look and seeing the snark and swipes coming from both sides.
 


I mean, what's the rule-to-game-world translation of the 'monsters lose their infravision, should they ever ally with the PCs' rule?
I meant to ask about this - I'm not familiar with that rule: where did it come from?

What's the rule-to-game-world translation of the 'a glowing magic sword can't be turned off, except that it doesn't turn on until a PC identifies it, because having the PCs find a glowing sword is too much of a giveaway!' rule?
:hmm: Not too familiar with that ever happening either - is that actually a rule, or just a dm "ruling?" If the latter, I would say its poor DMing more than anything else.

What's the rule-to-game-world translation of the 'Wizards shall not heal!' tradition?
This one, though, is easy - supernatural healing comes from positive energy, which is the domain of the divine and wizards muck around with more elemental forces, and have little power over raw positive energy. The exception to this rule is necromancy, which approaches the question of life from the other angle... :)
 

Hmmm...thread was mildly interesting at its outset when the premise was focused away from "why 4e sucks...GO!" I take a look a few weeks later and, shockingly, we're partying like its 2009!

All it took to take a decent discussion into this later near flame war was one person. /sigh

I get that not every game works for everybody and that's totally very cool with me. If one game worked for everybody we'd all be playing OD&D.

We should be respectful of each others choice in game, even if someone likes something different. And while we can say we don't like a game, it should always come with a clarification that we are only commenting on the game itself and not anybody who enjoys it. I feel its awesome people like what I don't like, and I only don't like games where I don't grok the system.
 

But I am not here to put every mechanic under the sun on trial for possibly being dissociative.

That's a fools errand anyway, because the matter is, like so many things, highly subjective... Does the mechanic cause dissonance in the player or does it not.

To use the case in point, Power Attack seems highly "associative" to me, but obviously there are people who are very passionate about it the other way. Who am I to argue with their perception of dissonance. Further, different contexts might make a thing create more or less dissonance in and of itself, without the thing changing...

For instance, if I was playing 4e, a fighter "daily" power would really bug me. If I play one of the Board Games like Wrath of Ashardalon, the same mechanic doesn't bother me in the slightest. That is slightly irrational I suppose, but it is what it is.

I listen to a lot of board game reviews and I find it interesting to hear different reviewers discuss their views and opinions on the exact same mechanic in a game. Some will find some fiddly bits of a particular game to break the mood for them, while others are fine with it. Nor is the interpretation consistent within a single reviewer, as sometimes what bothers them in one game might not bother them as much in another, if the game makes up for it elsewhere. It can be, as I already said, highly subjective; often dependent upon how well the reviewer can justify the action as being in some way related to the theme in the game (this probably only matters in themed games; abstracts are a different thing). But it behooves one to recognize the fluidity of opinions on the matter of tying mechanics to theme and how the exact same thing can be interpreted so differently by different users.
 
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There is so much vitriol in Erechel's post it's not worth responding in detail.
I think there's a lot more ESL than vitriol.

I am hoping you did not mean that the way it actually reads.
I meant it as "keep running 5e, and you'll acquire the familiarity and confidence to modify more of it."

The average player is more munchkinesque in 4th edition. An average 3rd edition player (and I've played with many non experienced ones) certainly is not near as effective as a munckin one, because the powergamers were scarcer as it tends to be a game were rules and options were monstruously high.
This might be something peculiar to your location. 3e was complex and imbalanced, system mastery required a fairly significant effort, but the rewards were very high - but it wasn't difficult or rare to acquire such mastery, and the internet was full of broken combos and detailed optimal builds you could lift if you wanted to. Thus, system mastery and its effects were pervasive in 3.x - probably one reason why the on-line was adamant about following 'the RAW,' as letting DMs get away with changing or re-interpreting the rules would dilute the value of system mastery.

I don't know if it is the case outside my country, were D&D books are expensive and mostly in a secondary language, but here most players don't know most rules.
I can see how that would lead to less powergaming at your 3e tables.

What I'm trying to say is that to become an average 4th edition requires a level of metagaming mastery not present in prior editions, hence the dissociated dynamics as the core.
Again, it sounds like this is a language barrier issue. Not only is 4e written in English, but it leans heavily on jargon. To a native English speaker, it's usually pretty easy, if you're willing to do it at all, to learn the jargon definition of keywords and from there the game is very clearly written. There's not a lot of need for interpretation, and you don't need to memorize spells, monsters, items, or other powers, because you can easily understand them on a first read-through, nor does a DM need to be intimately familiar with all the PCs' powers, because he can count on his players being familiar with them, and can resolve and unfamiliar one easily at the table, even if no one had ever looked at before.

But, yes, I can see how, trying to translate 4e, missing the use of jargon, and instead memorizing it so you could help everyone at the table build and play their characters as if it were as inconsistent and unclear as an earlier edition might make it seem even more daunting.



Its interesting how the same game we have all played can have such radically different results in us.

For many of the reasons listed above where someone found 4e dissociative, I found dynamic and the opposite of dissociative. 4e allowed me to visualize and creatively imagine what was going on in the action better than the majority of all RPGs, not just other editions of D&D.
Nod, 4e's fairly obscure 're-skinning' rule, gives you permission to re-imagine how powers work and look, as long as you leave the mechanics alone. If you can embrace that, it gives you the perception of openness to creativity that you experienced. If you can't, then you could be disappointed with or confused by a power description that doesn't mesh with the way you'd imagine the mechanics translating into imagination, since you don't realize the description is just a suggestion, and you can substitute something that works for you.

It's still a stretch from that to the 'dissociative mechanics' edition-war rhetoric, and, indeed, the article than coined the term actually did re-define power descriptions (actually that of the whole source), in order to make them dissociative, on the grounds they were 'unrealistic' as presented. So the option of re-skinning could go both ways. You could use it to paint the image you were going for, or to sabotage your own enjoyment of the game.

I also feel 4e requires the least amount of system mastery IF you are a player. It is actually a very simple system.
It's fairly clear and balanced, which can make it seem 'simple,' in one sense (easy to use). It also has a lot of detail and 'moving parts,' so as a system, it's complex. Complexity can seem simple or complicated depending on how it's presented, and how the reader approaches it. A player looking at 4e and trying to figure out which race & class best fit a character concept, then build that character, is likely to perceive a fairly simple system, by the time he's done, he's looked at a few obvious choices of race, class, powers & feats, and probably has a good handle on the ones he's chosen. Similarly, a DM who just wants to run a module only has to learn how to read a monster entry, and handle the mechanics of the game - one building new encounters would have to learn the encounter building guidelines.

OTOH, if you approach 4e from the perspective of trying to find the most powerful classes and feat/power/item combos, you have to look through /all/ of them, at least a full read-through of everything, and that's a lot of material. You experience the full complexity of the game, that way.
 
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One key difference with older D&D/OSR D&D is a lto of people now days have not played it as 3E was the last great intake of new D&D players.
This does not match my experience at all. 3E brought a bunch of people into the hobby for sure, but so did 4E (albeit not for the sustained length of time that 3E did).
 

:hmm: Not too familiar with that ever happening either - is that actually a rule, or just a dm "ruling?" If the latter, I would say its poor DMing more than anything else.
Sadly, the on-again-off-again infravision thing was before my time, so the best citation I can provide is Old Geezer on rpg.net. I can however point you to page 182 of the 2e DMG, under the 'Light Generation' heading for the PC-sensing magical swords. Speaking of magic swords, what happens when a pre-3e wizard picks one up and gives it a swing, despite not having magic swords on their list of allowed magical items? What's the in-world explanation for every single member of demihuman races being restricted from certain classes, regardless of birthplace or upbringing? How about wizards being unable to add looted spells to their repertoire beyond a certain limit based on Int, regardless of how many or how big their spell books are? (PHB, page 17.) Why does changing alignment involuntarily have no effect on xp, but changing voluntarily suddenly makes it twice as hard to learn everything from sword-swinging to spell-slinging? (DMG page 28-29.)

This one, though, is easy - supernatural healing comes from positive energy, which is the domain of the divine and wizards muck around with more elemental forces, and have little power over raw positive energy. The exception to this rule is necromancy, which approaches the question of life from the other angle... :)
Speaking of positive and negative energy in WotC D&D, why is one in the necro school while the other is in conjuration? Speaking of 3.x, why do rogues get a single odd optional 1/day feature? Nobody seems to have a problem with monks stunning people with a single blow, because monks are quasi-magical kung-fu masters, but what exactly is happening when a fighter takes the Stunning Fist feat and starts stunning stuff X/day? And out of curiosity, how are these things different from the martial daily exploits you don't like, other than being oddities within their own edition?

I'm sure you could think of explanations for these things, as well as all of the other oddities which permeate D&D, just like you did for the wizard-heal-begone tradition.
 
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We could spend all day debating each individual mechanic on whether it is dissociative or not, but if the distinction between out of character and in character doesn't concern you, then probably not going to get us anywhere to talk about it. All I can say is I do find the concept of dissociative mechanics useful in design. I don't allow it to be a straight jacket but it is a helpful standard that results in the kinds of games I like to play. But I am not here to put every mechanic under the sun on trial for possibly being dissociative. Like I said, I don't think it is all that useful for things like edition wars. What I will comment on is wizards not healing doesn't strike me as all that connected to the concern. That is about setting assumptions. If you make a game world with divine and arcane magic and one is better suited to healing while the other is not, wizards not being able to heal doesn't raise any concerns for me on these grounds.
You're right, a lot of the technical gaming jargon that gets tossed around on game forums doesn't hold much interest for me, so I'm happy to take your word for 'dissociative mechanic' rather than read JA's...*googles*...9+ blog posts about this term??? Holy kraken! I wish I had the time to play that this guy has to write.

Anyhow, the wizards-heal-begone thing as well as many other D&D issues aren't a matter of dissociation as JA has apparently defined the term; and that's my point. It's a term which exists to single out one particular variety of mechanics -- specifically with regards to one particular edition of one particular game, hmmm -- in a game and hobby full of 'Er, what exactly does this mean in the game world?' mechanics. For the sake of your own potential gamer audience, I do hope you're not so selective. :)
 

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