D&D 5E (2014) Consequences of Failure

[Charlaquin]

Which is about the same way I'd describe picking a lock. There may have been some other descriptive language like "How the [bleep] would I know how to pick a lock?"

“Pick the lock” is a perfectly acceptable approach to the goal of “get the locked door open.”

 

[FrogReaver]

Okay, so I think the question for your arm wrestle is why are you doing it? Are we playing Over the Top and can win a totally boss truck? Are we trying to impress the locals and decide arm wrestling because that's the way they do it in Skittlesville? Is the point to intimidate your former co-worker with your mighty thews?

The approach you're taking in each is an arm wrestle, but the goal isn't necessarily to win said arm wrestle.

Then let me pose a different question. Should whatever your goal is impact the difficulty of the arm wrestle? If it doesn't then what the heck difference does knowing your goal make? If it does then I must ask, why does your goal in winning the contest sometimes make the contest harder or easier?

 

[FrogReaver]

“Pick the lock” is a perfectly acceptable approach to the goal of “get the locked door open.”

For you yes, but others have gave differing opinions on questions like that...

It almost seems to me that if we analyze any scene enough we can come away with a valid goal and approach without the player even needing to specify the goal. I want to pick the lock. DM "what's your approach, ummmm nevermind, that as your approach and your goal is obvious

 

[Scott Christian]

I guess my sneak example was a poor choice. The GM allowing players to sneak up on them wasn't to have a predetermined scene take place. The adventurers could have just as easily attacked from a distance, left the room and explored elsewhere, or charged in to disrupt the scene. I'm just talking from a GM standpoint, it seems very few GM's use the "sure you can do this" approach. Yes, the outcome could vary if they roll, but would that really change the scene? Maybe, but doubtful. Because nine out of ten groups will fight the drow in the end. Especially if there is a motive already built in - such as to stop the ritual. That's what I was trying to convey. Yes, it could throw that one party off course, but in my experience that party is rare.

My experience is playing for 30 years, in 6 different states, with 13 different campaigns, and over a hundred con games. So yes, I am using anecdotal evidence, but to me it feels 90% solid.

 

[Scott Christian]

Okay, so I think the question for your arm wrestle is why are you doing it? Are we playing Over the Top and can win a totally boss truck? Are we trying to impress the locals and decide arm wrestling because that's the way they do it in Skittlesville? Is the point to intimidate your former co-worker with your mighty thews?

The approach you're taking in each is an arm wrestle, but the goal isn't necessarily to win said arm wrestle.

Your knowledge of references for armwrestling are AMAZING!

 

[Campbell]

Okay, so I think the question for your arm wrestle is why are you doing it? Are we playing Over the Top and can win a totally boss truck? Are we trying to impress the locals and decide arm wrestling because that's the way they do it in Skittlesville? Is the point to intimidate your former co-worker with your mighty thews?

The approach you're taking in each is an arm wrestle, but the goal isn't necessarily to win said arm wrestle.

I dislike using intent to resolve what happens. In my game the roll will determine if you won the arm wrestling match with fallout based on the details of the fiction. The locals will be impressed if feats of strength are something they would be impressed by.

I know how intent based resolution works. I have played Burning Wheel where it is used for every check. I happen to prefer an approach to play where we see how things naturally play out based on what the characters do, where things snowball naturally.

 

[FrogReaver]

So I think at this point in time we have discovered one of the biggest challenges in the goal and approach method is:

How do you determine if the player is stating an approach or a goal. If he's just giving you his goal then obviously an approach is needed, but if he is giving you an approach, how do you determine if you care about him stating his goal and what mechanical impact do different goals have at that point.

 

[FrogReaver]

Another pitfall of goal and approach with auto success and auto failure is ending up requiring super specific approaches for auto success, while having a number of possibilities for auto failure, thus causing players to ultimately have a better chance of success playing for the dice roll than playing for the auto success.

 

[Charlaquin]

For you yes, but others have gave differing opinions on questions like that...

It almost seems to me that if we analyze any scene enough we can come away with a valid goal and approach without the player even needing to specify the goal. I want to pick the lock. DM "what's your approach, ummmm nevermind, that as your approach and your goal is obvious

Most of the time, if all a player tells me is an approach, I can surmise their goal. As you probably know, I don’t like making those assumptions, so I set the expectation ahead of time that actions be framed in terms of goal and approach. But yeah, if all you say is “I try to pick the lock,” I can resolve that. If a player tells me a goal without an approach, such as “I check for traps” (that’s a goal - find out if there are traps), I can’t supply an approach for them without overstepping what I consider to be my role as DM. If a player tells me they make a History check or asks if they can make a History check, that doesn’t tell me their goal or their approach, only what Proficiency they think will help them achieve their goal.

 

[Charlaquin]

Another pitfall of goal and approach with auto success and auto failure is ending up requiring super specific approaches for auto success, while having a number of possibilities for auto failure, thus causing players to ultimately have a better chance of success playing for the dice roll than playing for the auto success.

I submit that this is a very common anxiety for players who have little experience playing within this framework, as well as for those who have experienced playing with a DM who utilized this framework poorly. But in actual play, with a fair-to-good DM, it proves to be unfounded.