D&D 5E (2014) Consequences of Failure

[FrogReaver]

I submit that this is a very common anxiety for players who have little experience playing within this framework, as well as for those who have experienced playing with a DM who utilized this framework poorly. But in actual play, with a fair-to-good DM, it proves to be unfounded.

Right, it's a pitfall that can be avoided I think.

 

[Oofta]

“Pick the lock” is a perfectly acceptable approach to the goal of “get the locked door open.”

Well, first of all I'm sure you don't run your game exactly as some people would. Second, maybe "pick the lock" is not the best example.

Another example would be simple traps. Many people have stated over the course of several threads that you need to give specific approach to how you disable a trap and that if you describe it in the "correct" way it works.

In the DMG they give some examples of how you might be able to bypass some traps which is fine. It's when you have to describe how you disable all traps that I personally would have a problem with. Again, not saying you do that, I don't know. Just like I wouldn't necessarily know (or care to) describe how I disable all traps.

Last, but not least, sometime the goal of the chicken crossing the road is just to get to the other side.

 

[Charlaquin]

So I think at this point in time we have discovered one of the biggest challenges in the goal and approach method is:

How do you determine if the player is stating an approach or a goal. If he's just giving you his goal then obviously an approach is needed, but if he is giving you an approach, how do you determine if you care about him stating his goal and what mechanical impact do different goals have at that point.

I think it’s pretty intuitive once you get used to it. An approach is something the character does in the fiction. A goal is something the player wants to happen as a result of something the character does in the fiction.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think it’s pretty intuitive once you get used to it. An approach is something the character does in the fiction. A goal is something the player wants to happen as a result of something the character does in the fiction.

So I arm wrestle (to win the arm wrestling contest)
I investigate the wall (to see if I find anything unordinary)
I run 20 miles (just to do it)
I hold my breathe (to avoid breathing in the poison gas)
I look for signs of goblins (to avoid an ambush)

It seems to me that under your playstyle, all the basic action and skill words in D&D are approaches, which would mean that your style is basically equivalent to a non- goal and approach method...

No wonder this conversation has been so confusing

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, first of all I'm sure you don't run your game exactly as some people would. Second, maybe "pick the lock" is not the best example.

Another example would be simple traps. Many people have stated over the course of several threads that you need to give specific approach to how you disable a trap and that if you describe it in the "correct" way it works.

In the DMG they give some examples of how you might be able to bypass some traps which is fine. It's when you have to describe how you disable all traps that I personally would have a problem with. Again, not saying you do that, I don't know. Just like I wouldn't necessarily know (or care to) describe how I disable all traps.

Well, disabling a trap is a goal. You as a player want the result of your character's action in the fictional world to be that the trap is disabled. I can’t tell you what your character does to achieve this goal, but what I can tell you is that if a means of disabling the trap is not apparent to you, I probably haven’t done my job of describing the environment well enough.

Last, but not least, sometime the goal of the chicken crossing the road is just to get to the other side.

Crossing the road isn’t a conflict really worth rolling to resolve, unless it’s like... a busy highway and failing to cross means getting hit by a car. In that case, yeah, I think getting to the other side is a reasonable goal, and that chicken is going to need an approach. Simply walking across is, in that case, not one likely to result in success.

 

[FrogReaver]

Well, disabling a trap is a goal. You as a player want the result of your character's action in the fictional world to be that the trap is disabled. I can’t tell you what your character does to achieve this goal, but what I can tell you is that if a means of disabling the trap is not apparent to you, I probably haven’t done my job of describing the environment well enough.

Yea, that distinction you were trying to make about what is a goal and what is an approach.... that's about as clear as mud after this.

Crossing the road isn’t a conflict really worth rolling to resolve, unless it’s like... a busy highway and failing to cross means getting hit by a car. In that case, yeah, I think getting to the other side is a reasonable goal, and that chicken is going to need an approach. Simply walking across is, in that case, not a goal likely to result in success.

And again, just a moment ago I would have thought that you believed walking across the road counted as an approach. It almost feels like you are picking and choosing what counts as an approach and what as a goal for arbitrary reasons.

 

[Beleriphon]

Then let me pose a different question. Should whatever your goal is impact the difficulty of the arm wrestle? If it doesn't then what the heck difference does knowing your goal make? If it does then I must ask, why does your goal in winning the contest sometimes make the contest harder or easier?

Because achieving said goal via arm wrestling is easier or harder to do. Winning over a crowd, regardless of winning is different than winning the arm wrestle so you can get the prize money.

 

[Charlaquin]

So I arm wrestle (to win the arm wrestling contest)

Why do you want to win the arm wrestling contest, though? I see an approach, but not a goal, and the goal is relevant for me to determine the stakes and difficulty. For instance, if you want the prize money, that may be a harder goal to achieve than impressing the barmaid, and and easier to achieve than putting your opponent to shame. If you are just doing it to earn a sense of accomplishment, that’s really up to you and what you think your character’s standards for personal accomplishment are.

I investigate the wall (to see if I find anything unordinary)

That’s a goal, but doesn’t communicate an approach. How are you investigating the wall, are you just inspecting it visually, are you feeling it with your hands, are you using a tool?

I run 20 miles (just to do it)

Weird, but ok.

I hold my breathe (to avoid breathing in the poison gas)

Cool, you can do that for up to 1 plus your con mod minutes, and I’m going to rule that you need to maintain concentration during that time to avoid taking a breath as an involuntary reflex.

I look for signs of goblins (to avoid an ambush)

Great, that will take at least 10 minutes and a DC 15 Wisdom check.

It seems to me that under your playstyle, all the basic action and skill words in D&D are approaches, which would mean that your style is basically equivalent to a non- goal and approach method...

Incorrect.

 

[FrogReaver]

Because achieving said goal via arm wrestling is easier or harder to do. Winning over a crowd, regardless of winning is different than winning the arm wrestle so you can get the prize money.

Hold on. I asked about the difficulty of the arm wrestle itself, not the difficulty of winning over the crowd. Should your goal impact the difficulty of the arm wrestle itself?

 

[Charlaquin]

And again, just a moment ago I would have thought that you believed walking across the road counted as an approach.

It does. You might want to re-read that comment.