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D&D 5E Consequences of Failure

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Okay, I've done a bit of organizing thinking on this, and here's the rub: If you're going to use goal and approach as a method, you must present a game that offers handles to the players to propose goals and approaches. In short, yes, it's part and parcel of the method that you must change how you present situations. If you're only going to call for rolls for things that are uncertain and have a risk of failure, then it's incumbent on the DM to present uncertain situations with consequences of failure. This doesn't work if you just have hallways that may or may not be trapped, as what happens is that players are now asked to do repetitive goal and approach declarations and this gets old fast. It's easier handled in an ask-for-roll approach as the entire exercise in the fiction is abstracted and pushed off onto the mechanics to get past this repetitive play and move to the bits with heft.
To me, this takes a very good method of play - goal and approach - and dials it up to a point where it takes all sorts of equally-good other methods of play that could happily co-exist with G'n'A in the same game, and tosses them out.

Goal and approach require that the DM change the presentation of the game.
No it doesn't. The DM should present the game exactly as she did before*, giving no information that the PCs wouldn't have and remaining neutral.

* - assuming the presentation of the situation is already of worthwhile enough quality for the players/PCs to interact with; if not, this needs improvement regardless of playstyle.

What's required is a player-side change, where they take the elements of both their PC and the described situation and incorporate them into how they describe what they're doing next. Put another way, the players need to take a bit more time and use a few more words to describe both what they want to do and how they're going about doing it.

Situation: party's trying to break someone out of prison and know what cell he's in.

"We sneak down the hall to the prison cell" might become (after some in-character planning either now or earlier)

"The prison cell is at the end of the hall, and we have to assume there's guards about even if we haven't seen any yet. This means absolute stealth, so we spend a moment and tie bits of cloth around our boots to muffle the sound of footfalls, we run on the minimum possible light (or better yet, none at all), and to avoid getting separated we run a long piece of string between us that we each hold in our left hands"

You have to present challenges that prompt the players into action. This is different, as most games just have the DM present the description of the room and have other information gated behind the obligatory skill checks. You either gain the information or you do not, and this affects the actions your take and if the things you did not notice affect you and now call for new checks or if you engage what you have noticed via other checks. Goal and approach, though, doesn't work at all with this presentation -- you must provide a handle on the action for the players.
Sure it works with this presentation, provided you're not hung up on the idea of the PCs/players acting on faulty or incomplete information. If you don't know something, or miss noticing something, you can't very well act on it, can you?

And sometimes people do miss noticing things even when they're right in front of their faces.

As such, it requires a form of framing more akin to more narrative-style games where you present a dynamic situation with a clear call to action and then say, "what do you do?"

Yes, this method misses some of the things that the ask-for-rolls does -- they are completely different styles of play. What's missed, though, are the things that no longer make sense in terms of goal and approach play. I don't miss that my players ask for rolls, fail, and give me the opportunity to create new fiction to describe their failures because my method does this well, just in a different context. My method creates consequence based on what the players express rather then what I, as DM, think. I find this preferable. I have to do a bit more work on the front end -- I have to provide a clear call to action in my scene framing and this isn't trivial -- but I offload a lot of work on the backend as I'm now just reacting to the players and following their lead through the scene. This is very different from the much more DM mediated experience of asking-for-rolls and using rolls to gate information and provide tension. Both are very valid ways to play. Neither can recreate the experiences of the other. That's actually a big selling point for me -- most of my pain points with D&D came from the heavy DM load and I find goal and approach lightens that considerably and presents play that I enjoy very much. YMMV, and that's part of the coolness of this hobby.
Nothing says these things can't be combined.

All it needs is that your scene framing be based on the level of PC knowledge given by their rolls, rather than just assuming they notice everything. For example if the PCs enter a room in an old castle that has various furniture, a half-open closet, a curtain-covered window, and an assassin hiding behind the couch your framing and description would - I hope! - change slightly based on whether the PCs noticed the actual assassin, or just noticed signs of his presence, or didn't notice anything amiss at all. It's a safe bet the presence or absence of this information is going to have a lot to say in determining the PCs'/players' next goal(s)!
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
"The prison cell is at the end of the hall, and we have to assume there's guards about even if we haven't seen any yet. This means absolute stealth, so we spend a moment and tie bits of cloth around our boots to muffle the sound of footfalls, we run on the minimum possible light (or better yet, none at all), and to avoid getting separated we run a long piece of string between us that we each hold in our left hands"

Is that your real example of goal-and-approach, or a parody of it?

I ask that in all seriousness. I can't tell.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
For my part if a player declared their character was going to try to give a random bar patron a wedgie my response would be to address the character and ask why. Not out of judgement, but because I want to know and want to see where the fiction could possibly lead. I generally want consequences that are going to be more meaningful on a character level over time.

Maybe something like: "Whoa Ragna! Is this just a prank? Do you know this guy?"
Why would you-as-DM ask anything, though? Asking something like this comes across as a DM "are you sure?" warning, implying either DM disapproval or major danger ahead.

Now if it's an NPC you're running who already knows the prankster and asks this then all is good - but note the immense difference between asking it in-character and out-of-character.

If you don't have such an NPC in the scene then all you can do is just hit the curveball the player's just thrown your way and go with it.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Is that your real example of goal-and-approach, or a parody of it?

I ask that in all seriousness. I can't tell.
Goal - immediate: to get to the cell without being noticed.
Goal - greater: to bust our friend out of jail.
Approach - immediate: <the various stealth measures noted>
Approach - overall: sneak in and extract him rather than going in all guns blazing.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Why would you-as-DM ask anything, though? Asking something like this comes across as a DM "are you sure?" warning, implying either DM disapproval or major danger ahead.

Now if it's an NPC you're running who already knows the prankster and asks this then all is good - but note the immense difference between asking it in-character and out-of-character.

If you don't have such an NPC in the scene then all you can do is just hit the curveball the player's just thrown your way and go with it.

Within the context of an isolated experience in a game that does not normally use this sort of technique it might feel like "Are you sure?", but that's not what it is about. It comes from a place of genuine curiosity about the fiction and a desire for context. I ask these sorts of questions all the time.

  • Do you mean it? Are you just trying to pull the wool over her eyes?
  • He is a priest of Hastur. Can you really trust him?
  • Which tavern do you normally perform at? Are there any regulars you are fond of?
  • You have slain your archnemesis? Are you relieved? What now?

In the context of a game where the GM has shown themselves to be an advocate for the fiction and a curious explorer of it all this is fairly normal. Think of these questions as a chance for us to step into the player characters inner world, to see their struggles and triumphs. It's like the inner dialogue in a television show.

You might not like this sort of technique, but obviously I can do it because I do it all the time. I find it helps players to really consider the fiction, who their characters are deep down, and to play with integrity.
 

5ekyu

Hero
To me, this takes a very good method of play - goal and approach - and dials it up to a point where it takes all sorts of equally-good other methods of play that could happily co-exist with G'n'A in the same game, and tosses them out.

No it doesn't. The DM should present the game exactly as she did before*, giving no information that the PCs wouldn't have and remaining neutral.

* - assuming the presentation of the situation is already of worthwhile enough quality for the players/PCs to interact with; if not, this needs improvement regardless of playstyle.

What's required is a player-side change, where they take the elements of both their PC and the described situation and incorporate them into how they describe what they're doing next. Put another way, the players need to take a bit more time and use a few more words to describe both what they want to do and how they're going about doing it.

Situation: party's trying to break someone out of prison and know what cell he's in.

"We sneak down the hall to the prison cell" might become (after some in-character planning either now or earlier)

"The prison cell is at the end of the hall, and we have to assume there's guards about even if we haven't seen any yet. This means absolute stealth, so we spend a moment and tie bits of cloth around our boots to muffle the sound of footfalls, we run on the minimum possible light (or better yet, none at all), and to avoid getting separated we run a long piece of string between us that we each hold in our left hands"

Sure it works with this presentation, provided you're not hung up on the idea of the PCs/players acting on faulty or incomplete information. If you don't know something, or miss noticing something, you can't very well act on it, can you?

And sometimes people do miss noticing things even when they're right in front of their faces.

Nothing says these things can't be combined.

All it needs is that your scene framing be based on the level of PC knowledge given by their rolls, rather than just assuming they notice everything. For example if the PCs enter a room in an old castle that has various furniture, a half-open closet, a curtain-covered window, and an assassin hiding behind the couch your framing and description would - I hope! - change slightly based on whether the PCs noticed the actual assassin, or just noticed signs of his presence, or didn't notice anything amiss at all. It's a safe bet the presence or absence of this information is going to have a lot to say in determining the PCs'/players' next goal(s)!


""The prison cell is at the end of the hall, and we have to assume there's guards about even if we haven't seen any yet. This means absolute stealth, so we spend a moment and tie bits of cloth around our boots to muffle the sound of footfalls, we run on the minimum possible light (or better yet, none at all), and to avoid getting separated we run a long piece of string between us that we each hold in our left hands" "

Sounds like in ye olde days "sneaky SOP #12 - running silent"...

Some games had pages of them written out for a lot of different "how we describe it is crucial" situations.

Sometimes we would have copies so we could modify one quickly and hand it over - or read from it if necessary.

After all, its not like our characters know any of this.

"Yee Goode Olde Days"
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
This is really well put.

The trap I've fallen into in this thread (and others) is to take the offered scenarios...which occur in ask-for-rolls games...and then try, at the last second, to "convert" them to goal-and-approach.

It's good to see you finally realize the approach you were taking that was causing the rest of use so much frustration.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Sure. I've said that many, many times.

I don't expect you to re-read 766 posts, but throughout this thread you and others have repeatedly said, in effect, "Here is a situation where your approach doesn't work." And I and others have tried to demonstrate how that's not true.

...Nearly always by trying to turn non goal and approach scenarios into goal and approach scenarios. Which as you now realize wasn't the best of approaches.

No, not at all. I think perhaps you are reading a condescending, eye-rolling sneer into "you are certainly free to...".

But "You don't really know if you haven't tried it" does not even remotely equal "my way is the only way that works."

Hmmm, that'd make a good tide pod eater slogan.... Go try a tide pod... you don't really know how good they are if you haven't tried one ;)
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I think that when one tries to defend their position from criticism with, "what do you know, you haven't tried it", that they have already lost the war.

If your selling me something, you better be able to tell me what it is that you are selling me can do that all these other things can't do, and you better be able to acknowledge a fault or 2 of the thing you are trying to sale me, even if you acknowledge them and downplay them in the same breath. If you want to sell me on trying something then for gods sake don't tell me I don't know if I'll like it if I've never tried it.

Currently, I think goal and approach method has a lot going for it. I just don't see the need to go all in on it and exclude every other method. I'm capable of using goal and approach and other methods in the same game. I've yet to see one argument for why solely playing by goal and approach is better than this mixed style.

But I'm willing to be sold, so what can a game that's exclusively goal and approach offer that this sometimes goal and approach and sometimes other method cannot offer?
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I think that when one tries to defend their position from criticism with, "what do you know, you haven't tried it", that they have already lost the war.

If your selling me something, you better be able to tell me what it is that you are selling me can do that all these other things can't do, and you better be able to acknowledge a fault or 2 of the thing you are trying to sale me, even if you acknowledge them and downplay them in the same breath. If you want to sell me on trying something then for gods sake don't tell me I don't know if I'll like it if I've never tried it.

Currently, I think goal and approach method has a lot going for it. I just don't see the need to go all in on it and exclude every other method. I'm capable of using goal and approach and other methods in the same game. I've yet to see one argument for why solely playing by goal and approach is better than this mixed style.

But I'm willing to be sold, so what can a game that's exclusively goal and approach offer that this sometimes goal and approach and sometimes other method cannot offer?
Not interested. I mean, everyone's already told you that they don't care how you play. Why you think you're owed a sales pitch is beyond me.
 

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