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Constitution? 14th Amendment?

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tomBitonti

Adventurer
To note, I think it's important to distinguish the judge's order and its motivation from the Texas statute and the motivation behind it.

Also, there was an indication in the order that the statute may be valid but that Texas officials may individually be improperly enforcing it, and that other officials, for example, school officials, might also be individually failing to follow various statutes correctly. That seems to be evidence of individual discriminatory actions.

Thx!
TomB
 

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CaptainGemini

First Post
To note, I think it's important to distinguish the judge's order and its motivation from the Texas statute and the motivation behind it.

Also, there was an indication in the order that the statute may be valid but that Texas officials may individually be improperly enforcing it, and that other officials, for example, school officials, might also be individually failing to follow various statutes correctly. That seems to be evidence of individual discriminatory actions.

Thx!
TomB

That would be a clear case of discrimination. And if the law was written with such actions as the intended outcome (it's very likely it was), then I could see a good argument for it being discriminatory and being necessary to repeal.
 


Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
To note, I think it's important to distinguish the judge's order and its motivation from the Texas statute and the motivation behind it.

Also, there was an indication in the order that the statute may be valid but that Texas officials may individually be improperly enforcing it, and that other officials, for example, school officials, might also be individually failing to follow various statutes correctly. That seems to be evidence of individual discriminatory actions.

Thx!
TomB

Or they could just not understand the law themselves. Or be lazy. Or they may be racist. There's not enough to tell, and defaulting to racism is a bad baseline.
 


Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
I'll let the text you quoted stand.
In the text you say that the law does indeed negatively impacts people of different nationalities/ethnicities. Treating negatively people of a different nationality/ethnicity is racism by definition. But you say it isn't sufficient for you to call it racist. The question is then what would it take for it to be sufficient for you?
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
In the text you say that the law does indeed negatively impacts people of different nationalities/ethnicities.
Yes, but your formulation of this is trivial. All laws can negatively impact people of different nationalities/ethnicities. However, I take it you to mean that, in this case, there is a disproportionate impact on a specific nationality or ethnicity. If you do mean this latter statement (and that's the statement I was making above) then, yes, I agree this is true. There is a disproportionate impact on certain nationalities and/or ethnicities. To be absolutely specific, there is a disproportionate impact on Hispanics.


Treating negatively people of a different nationality/ethnicity is racism by definition.
Again, you're incredibly imprecise here, as that's not the definition under discussion nor is it part of any rational definition of racism. To clarify, you need to add 'because of'. Treating people of a different nationality or ethnicity negatively because of their nationality or ethnicity is racism. Your over-broad construct would have all immigration laws be racist.

But, again, if we provide the benefit of the doubt and allow that you meant the 'because of' definition, then, yes, that's a perfectly valid definition racism and I will agree to it for the purposes of this discussion. Treating others negatively because of their nationality or ethnicity is racist.


But you say it isn't sufficient for you to call it racist.
Yes, considering the above, it is not sufficient for it to be racist. The law does not target ethnicity or nationality -- it applies to all persons equally. It does, however, have a disproportionate impact on Hispanics, so that needs additional scrutiny to see if there's a stealthy mechanism in the law that is aimed at that ethnicity, thereby making it have a racist basis. However, upon scrutiny, the reason the law has a disproportionate impact on Hispanics is that Hispanics make up the majority of illegal immigrants, and the law is challenging for some illegal immigrants. The reason for the challenge to illegals is specifically tied to the fact that they are illegal, not that they are Hispanic -- ie, the law would impact ANY illegal in the same way, not just specifically Hispanics. However, since Hispanics make up the majority of illegals in the US, it stands to reason that any law that makes it more difficult to be illegal in the US will have a disproportionate impact on Hispanics.

Still, even with all of that, a canny person could use that knowledge to hide a racist motive and have put this law into effect on that motive. That's tricky to find, so the next step is to consider if this law is the least restrictive way to enact the protections needed. If a better way can be found to both provide security to identity documents AND reduce the impact on Hispanics, then that's a much better choice. If such a solution exists (or many such solutions) and the law remains as it is, then I would strongly consider that the motivations are racist.

What this comes down to is that I strongly reject the idea that laws that impact illegals in the US are racist on their face. Those laws may be racist, but having a disproportionate impact on Hispanic illegals because they're illegal isn't sufficient evidence of a racist motive.

The question is then what would it take for it to be sufficient for you?
The selection of this option over other options with less disproportionate impacts. As it stands, it may yet by racist, but there's not enough information to show that it is. In the meantime, it meets the clear definition of a government compelling interest and has not yet failed the least restrictive option tests.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Not being snarky, if I come across that way. I might be lacking information. You seem very certain of your stance, so maybe you have something I haven't read that shows those other consular IDs are being accepted.

My search shows the memo saying that matricular consulares were no longer being accepted can be read here: http://www.expressnews.com/file/106/3/1063-Letter from Dee Porter.pdf

A bit of searching shows me that only Mexico, Argentina, and Brazil offer cards by that name. Guatemala, Peru, Ecuador, Pakistan, Nigeria, and other nations offer consular IDs, but by different names, and so are not covered by that memo. Other nations that don't offer consular IDs, but use some other ID system, are not affected.

The effect is that kids of Mexican parents are impacted more than others. And, at least by the UN definition, the *effect* of discrimination based on national origin is sufficient for it to be racism.

The issue at hand is the rights of a natural born citizen of the US are infringed. The documentation of the parents should not be a barrier to a citizen getting services. Period. Whether or not it is racist, the Equal Protection clause applies - those kids qualify for access to services, and the state is getting in the way.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Huh. Missed this.
It is only the matriculas consulares of Mexican parents that are being rejected as ID, and this is a new thing. IDs of people from other nations are not being rejected.
Not quite. Yes, matriculas consulares (MC) are off the list, but they're off the list after investigation showed that there were no controls on the IDs, no central database or even sharing between consulates as to who was issued an ID, no clearly stated requirements for receiving the IDs, and no tracking of issued IDs at all. The research they did was to ask the Mexican government how they handled the MCs. And asking the FBI, who said that they don't accept MCs as valid identification for the same reasons. So they took those off the list as they were determined by Texas research, with collaboration by the Mexican government, and by Federal law enforcement as not being sufficiently secure.

But even further on the list are passports without a visa that are not issued from visa exempt countries. Again, this was well researched and falls in line with Federal ID policies. The Texas list looks a lot like the list the Federal government uses on the W4 forms.

And even further than that, they announced this decision in 2008, and took five years to being fully enforcing it. That's plenty of time to adjust.

Now, more recent information seems to indicate that maybe the MCs are better, but that's not fully in evidence and it's not yet clear if the newer MCs will meet the necessary standards. If they do and they're still left off, then, yes, you have a strong case. But as of now? Nope, can't see how disallowing a fundamentally flawed ID method is targeted at Mexicans.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
To note, I think it's important to distinguish the judge's order and its motivation from the Texas statute and the motivation behind it.

Sure. Overall, the judge's order isn't the root issue. Dismissing the question of racism because *this judges order* may not be racist is kind of dodging the main problem, that Texas is getting in the way of natural born citizens from getting services they are entitled to.
 
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