Constrict Damage

[Magus Coeruleus]

Do constricting monsters do normal attack damage plus constrict damage every round during a grapple when they win the check? The constrict damage listed for the Oozes is the same as the slam attack damage, and I wonder whether it's supposed to be essentially double damage or whether the constrict damage alone applies (i.e. the same as if it were hitting each round outside of a grapple). --Thanks.

 

[shilsen]

Constricting monsters with the improved grab ability (see the description of both Constrict and Improved Grab in the MM) do both constriction and slam damage whenever they win a grapple check.

 

[Mistwell]

Constricting monsters with the improved grab ability (see the description of both Constrict and Improved Grab in the MM) do both constriction and slam damage whenever they win a grapple check.

Actually that isn't my read of it. On the first round of the grapple they may deal the slam for the initial attack and then the contrict, but thereafter I think it is JUST the contrict. See: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/grappling.html

 

[Caliban]

Actually that isn't my read of it. On the first round of the grapple they may deal the slam for the initial attack and then the contrict, but thereafter I think it is JUST the contrict. See: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/grappling.html

I don't know, this part:

Monsters with improved grab pull the target into their space instead of moving into the target's space. The mosters are not considered grappled, so they don't lose their Dex bonus, still threaten an area, and can still make other attacks in the round normally.

seems to be incorrect. The improved grab ability states that to avoid those effects you have to take the -20 on all grapple checks.

The FAQ clarified that you can do the -20 thing whether or not you have Improved Grab, but you would still need to do it even if you have Improved Grab.

There is a new ability in Savage Species and on creatures in some of the new books that allows them to grapple you with just one limb without taking the -20, but it's seperate from Improved Grab.

 

[Mistwell]

Ah, okay, clearly I am out of date with my grapple rules then.

Anyone know of a good place to find a summary of current grapple rules and clarifications? I suspect (though am not sure) that I am about to enter into combat with a creature that does a lot of grapples (the DM went out of his way to ask me to make sure I knew attack and damage bonuses for my character if grappling, before next session). So I am trying to brush up on grappling.

 

[Caliban]

Ah, okay, clearly I am out of date with my grapple rules then.

Anyone know of a good place to find a summary of current grapple rules and clarifications? I suspect (though am not sure) that I am about to enter into combat with a creature that does a lot of grapples (the DM went out of his way to ask me to make sure I knew attack and damage bonuses for my character if grappling, before next session). So I am trying to brush up on grappling.

Unfortunately, the part about Constrict is unclear. It seems clear that the creature does it's Constrict damage in addition to the weapon used on the improved grab attempt (basically doing double damage with the attack that grabs you).

It is less clear how it works in successfive rounds.

Here is what the SRD says:

CONSTRICT

The creature crushes the opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability, it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.

The MM and MM2 also say the same thing.

So it seems that if the creature has just Constrict, it deals it's normal attack damage on a successful grapple check (as opposed to "unarmed damage" for a creature that size).

If the creature has just Improved Grab, it deals it's normal attack damage on a successful grapple check (as opposed to "unarmed damage" for a creature that size).


If it has both Improved Grab and Constrict, it deals double damage on the initial grapple check (once for attack tht initiated the Improved Grab, and once for Constrict), and double damage on each extra grapple check (once for Improved Grab and once for Constrict).


The real confusion is with the Improved Grab Ability, which comes from it's redundant and contradictory statements:

IMPROVED GRAB

If the creature hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required, and Tiny and Small creatures do not suffer a special size penalty. Unless otherwise stated, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it suffers a -20 penalty to grapple checks, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

A successful hold does not deal any additional damage unless the creature also has the constrict ability. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage listed for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is listed in the creature’s descriptive text).

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The creature is not considered grappled while it holds the opponent, so it still threatens adjacent squares and retains its Dexterity bonus. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

First it says that a creature with Improved Grapple needs to take a -20 on it's grapple check to not be considered grappled, and then it says that this happens automatically after a successful Improved Grab. (I made a mistake in my first post, when I said the Improved Grab didn't say anything about this, I missed the contradictory statement at the end of the entry.)

Here's what the FAQ has to say on the matter:

The introduction to the Monster Manual says a creature
with the improved grab ability can take a –20 penalty on
grappling checks to avoid being treated as grappled and so
keep its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class and continue to
threaten the area around it, among other benefits. How
long does the –20 penalty last? And how long is the creature
not considered grappled?

Any creature can opt to take –20 on a grapple check to avoid
the more unpleasant aspects of grappling (such as losing your
Dexterity bonus and being subject to sneak attacks from
rogues), not just creatures with the improved grab ability.

Once you decide to take the –20 penalty, the penalty applies
to all grapple checks you make until your next turn. Should you
succeed at a grapple check and actually establish a hold on an
opponent despite the penalty, you are not considered grappled.
(If you fail to establish a hold, you wouldn’t be grappling in
any case, unless someone grabbed and held you.) On your next
turn, you can stop taking the –20 penalty (which could help you
maintain your hold or pin your opponent), but if you do, you
are considered grappled until it’s your turn again, at which
point you can either let go or start taking the penalty again.

Exactly how and when does a creature with the improved
grab ability deal damage to an opponent? The material at
the beginning of the Monster Manual doesn’t seem to match
the material in the various monster descriptions. How does
the constrict ability affect a creature’s ability to deal
damage while grappling?

Improved grab lets you attempt to grapple a foe after you
have made a successful melee attack with a natural weapon,
which is usually either a claw or a tentacle. (The creature
description says which natural weapon can be used for
improved grabs.)

On the first round of grappling, the grabbing creature deals damage normally with a successful melee hit. If the creature then decides to grab and it wins the ensuing grapple check (see page 137 in the Player’s Handbook for the grappling procedure), it deals no extra damage unless it also has the constrict ability. If it can constrict, it deals constriction damage when it wins the grapple check.

If the creature begins its turn with an opponent in its grasp,
the creature can just hold on or it can attempt another grappling
check. If it elects to grapple again and it succeeds, the natural
weapon the attacker used in the improved grab deals normal
damage on the opponent. If the attacker also has the
constriction ability, it deals constriction damage in addition to
natural weapon damage.

Based on this, I believe that if the creature choosed not to do any grapple/constrict damage to you after the initial hit with an Improved Grab attack (after it grabs you and establishes it's Hold, it doesn't do any more grapple checks, it just holds on), it's not considered grappled, doesn't lose it's Dexterity bonus, and can attack other people. If the creature has another ability that causes damage, such as acid covered skin or a flame aura, you still take damage for that normally.

You are still held, and have to make a grapple check to break free (or you can choose to damage it instead of breaking free).

I think Constrict and Improved Grab are a broken combination, most PC's can't take that kind of damage for more than a round or two at best.

 

[Mistwell]

I get the impression from reading up on it a bit more that it is slightly weaker than proposed here from the BAB rule. It would appear a creature can only make a number of grapple attempts per round as its BAB would permit. So, once you are in a grapple with an improved grapple / contricting creature, it can only do normal damage + contrict one time per round, if its BAB is less than 6, or twice per round if 6 or greater, etc...

In other words let's say you are facing a creature like this (totally made up, since I am not using my MM right now for reasons not worth going in to here):
BAB +5. Attacks: 2 claws +7 (BAB +5, +2 Str). Damage: Claw 1d4+2. Special Attacks: Improved grapple, constrict. Special damage: Constrict 1d6+2.

Round 1: the creature attacks with a claw and hits, doing 1d4+2 damage, and gets a grapple check from improved grapple. Creature wins the grapple check, doing another 1d6+2 damage. Second claw, however, cannot be used (unless -20 was taken on the grapple check to leave it free), since it was used to make the grapple attempt.

Round 2: Assuming hapless character is still in the grapple, Creature can make ONE grapple check (based on its BAB), and if successful can deal 1d4+2 claw damage and 1d6+2 constrict damage. However, the other claw cannot be used to deal normal damage (unless -20 was taken on the grapple to leave that claw free), nor can the other claw deal its constrict damage, since it cannot make 2 grapple checks in the same round based on its BAB, and constrict requires a grapple check.

So, but-for the grappling and constricting, the creature could make two attacks, each at +7 attack, and each doing 1d4+2 damage. However with improved grapple and constrict, the creature makes one Grapple check at +7 attack, dealing 1d4+2 and 1d6+2 damage. Not a huge difference really, though slightly better than simply making its normal attacks. Of course, it is also vulnerable to attack from the opponants it is not grappling now, since it lost its dex bonus versus those opponants. A good ability, but not as overpowering as one might think.

Is my read on this correct?

 

[Caliban]

I get the impression from reading up on it a bit more that it is slightly weaker than proposed here from the BAB rule. It would appear a creature can only make a number of grapple attempts per round as its BAB would permit. So, once you are in a grapple with an improved grapple / contricting creature, it can only do normal damage + contrict one time per round, if its BAB is less than 6, or twice per round if 6 or greater, etc...

In other words let's say you are facing a creature like this (totally made up, since I am not using my MM right now for reasons not worth going in to here):
BAB +5. Attacks: 2 claws +7 (BAB +5, +2 Str). Damage: Claw 1d4+2. Special Attacks: Improved grapple, constrict. Special damage: Constrict 1d6+2.

Round 1: the creature attacks with a claw and hits, doing 1d4+2 damage, and gets a grapple check from improved grapple. Creature wins the grapple check, doing another 1d6+2 damage. Second claw, however, cannot be used (unless -20 was taken on the grapple check to leave it free), since it was used to make the grapple attempt.

Round 2: Assuming hapless character is still in the grapple, Creature can make ONE grapple check (based on its BAB), and if successful can deal 1d4+2 claw damage and 1d6+2 constrict damage. However, the other claw cannot be used to deal normal damage (unless -20 was taken on the grapple to leave that claw free), nor can the other claw deal its constrict damage, since it cannot make 2 grapple checks in the same round based on its BAB, and constrict requires a grapple check.

So, but-for the grappling and constricting, the creature could make two attacks, each at +7 attack, and each doing 1d4+2 damage. However with improved grapple and constrict, the creature makes one Grapple check at +7 attack, dealing 1d4+2 and 1d6+2 damage. Not a huge difference really, though slightly better than simply making its normal attacks. Of course, it is also vulnerable to attack from the opponants it is not grappling now, since it lost its dex bonus versus those opponants. A good ability, but not as overpowering as one might think.

Is my read on this correct?

What you say is correct, except that in Round 1 it can still attack with the 2nd claw. It's not considered to be Grappling unless it makes additional grapple checks on a held target on the successive rounds.


The problem is with creatures that have a huge grapple bonus and multiple natural attacks. They can easily Improved grab two or three people and simply Hold them, while they fight the rest of the group.

And some of the bigger creatures actually get more grapple attempts than they do natural weapon attacks.

 

[Mistwell]

What you say is correct, except that in Round 1 it can still attack with the 2nd claw. It's not considered to be Grappling unless it makes additional grapple checks on a held target on the successive rounds.

I'm not sure about that...I thought that in the round you hit with the claw and do the constrict damage, you are dragged into the space with that creature, and have already made a grapple check. Therefore, once that happens, the other claw cannot attack since it was used in the whole-body method of grappling (again, unless it took -20 on the grapple check).

The problem is with creatures that have a huge grapple bonus and multiple natural attacks. They can easily Improved grab two or three people and simply Hold them, while they fight the rest of the group.

And some of the bigger creatures actually get more grapple attempts than they do natural weapon attacks.

Hmmm let me see if I get this. If the creature just holds you, it doesn't make a grapple check, therefore deals no damage (is that right? Or would it deal constrict damage, but no claw damage?). But...my read is that it's other arms cannot attack other people unless the creature took -20 on their last grapple check...based on the "using the whole body to grapple" rules. I still see no way of holding on to someone and attacking someone else without taking -20 on the grapple check (which may in fact be what you are talking about), even with multiple attacks.

Mind you, this whole discussion has ignored the impact of using grapple attacks instead of attacks vs. AC...thinking about it more, a creature with Improved Grapple and Constrict does benefit a great deal, since they now only have to make opposed grapple checks to do their damage, which tend to be a lot easier than hitting a PCs armor class (particularly since they are usually larger than the PCs and have a strength bonus), and the PC of course can only retaliate with a light weapon or other grapple moves (meaning that Paladin with the magic big sword and magic full plate is losing most of his advantage, since both are not usable).

Yeah, I'm thinking that if I am about to run into a creature that grapples a lot...I should probably run!

 

[Caliban]

I'm not sure about that...I thought that in the round you hit with the claw and do the constrict damage, you are dragged into the space with that creature, and have already made a grapple check. Therefore, once that happens, the other claw cannot attack since it was used in the whole-body method of grappling (again, unless it took -20 on the grapple check).

That's the grapple check to establish the hold. According to the Improved Grab ability, that doesn't mean it's considered "grappling" yet, as long as it doesn't make any further grapple checks to do damage.

The Constrict ability allows it to do it's Constrict damage on the initial grapple check to hold you. Normally that initial grapple check doesn't do any damage if it was achieved with the Improved Grab ability (since they already hit you with their natural weapon in order to use their Improved Grab).

Hmmm let me see if I get this. If the creature just holds you, it doesn't make a grapple check, therefore deals no damage (is that right? Or would it deal constrict damage, but no claw damage?).

It would still do Constrict damage on the initial grapple check (the one to establish the hold), but if it chooses not to initiate any further grapple checks, it's not considered grappled, and doesn't do any grapple based damage (no constrict, no claw).

Of course, it could still simply attack you with it's other limbs, if it has multiple attacks, while holding you.

But...my read is that it's other arms cannot attack other people unless the creature took -20 on their last grapple check...based on the "using the whole body to grapple" rules.

According to the FAQ, that only applies if it wants to use grapple checks to damage you, and still use it's other natural weapons to attack other targets.

I still see no way of holding on to someone and attacking someone else without taking -20 on the grapple check (which may in fact be what you are talking about), even with multiple attacks.

That's what I thought at first, but read the last paragraph of the Improved Grab ability.

Mind you, this whole discussion has ignored the impact of using grapple attacks instead of attacks vs. AC...thinking about it more, a creature with Improved Grapple and Constrict does benefit a great deal, since they now only have to make opposed grapple checks to do their damage, which tend to be a lot easier than hitting a PCs armor class (particularly since they are usually larger than the PCs and have a strength bonus), and the PC of course can only retaliate with a light weapon or other grapple moves (meaning that Paladin with the magic big sword and magic full plate is losing most of his advantage, since both are not usable).

Yeah, I'm thinking that if I am about to run into a creature that grapples a lot...I should probably run!

That's usually the best tactic.

Lift off and nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.