D&D General Converting AD&D saving throws to stat-based saves

[Bacon Bits]

So this is applicable to 5E, Castles & Crusades, Shadowdark and other D&D-related games that use stat-based saves.

AD&D (and its retro-clones) use the following saving throws:

1. Paralyzation, Poison or Death Magic
2. Petrification or Polymorph
3. Rod, Staff or Wand
4. Breath Weapon
5. Spell

So we have five save types verus six stats. And, worse, they don't break down evenly. At a glance, both Breath Weapon and Petrification saves should probably both use Dexterity, for instance. Poison/Death Magic sounds like Constitution. And why are Rod/Staff/Wand and Spells different save types?

Really the issue is that AD&D saving throws are a totally different scheme. They're orthogonal to 3e and later saves or defenses.

R/S/W is easier than Spell. IIRC, it's literally Spell with a +1 modifier across the board. It's similar to how 5e wands have a fixed, lower DC. It's supposed to help compensate for the number of charges those devices have.

Really if you look in, I believe, either the 2e AD&D DMG or one of the BECMI books, they have a description for what each save is supposed to be used with, starting with highest priority and descending.

PPD: Effect tries to attack or destroy your life force directly or attack your body from the inside out.
RSW: Some kind of device tries to attack you, especially one that creates a beam, ray, or projectile.
PP: Effect tries to change your body against your will. Superseded by RSW.
BW: A particularly nasty effect tries to attack you, especially one that you're innately vulnerable to or that mimics dragon breath. Superseded by PP.
Spell: Anything else. Superseded by any of the above as appropriate.

So disease is, for example, a PPD save. A Ring of Shooting Stars or Horn of Blasting would be RSW.

I may have rays/beams in the wrong spot. But I recall them moving around.

Spell is the catch-all saving throw. It's what you use when nothing else fits.

PPD, PP, and RSW are all, in the general case, easier than Spell. Breath Weapon is, in the general case, harder than Spell. Some classes have hidden bonuses to certain save classes. Fighters, for example, have bonuses against Breath Weapons. Thieves are slightly improved across the board, except for PPD. Clerics are better against PPD. Magic-Users are better against Spells and RSW.

The easiest way to convert these for newer game systems would be if there was a one to one correspondence, but that doesn't seem realistic. The other obvious way would be to adjudicate each of these on the fly (and take notes on it for next time) when there's not an equivalent ability in the newer version.

Of the many things I would like to take a time machine to talk 1970s TSR folks out of, how saving throws work is a big one.

How would you all do it?

In 5e style saves:

PPD: This is always a Con save.
RSW: This is whatever the spell is, or else probably Dex if it's a ray or projectile. It might even be a spell attack.
PP: This is nearly always a Con save, but in some rare cases might be Wis.
BW: Nearly always converted as Dex, but it may be Con (poison cloud) or something similar.
Spell: This varies by effect. I don't think there's any other way to do these.

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Ah, I was able to find someone who quoted what I was looking for. It's from the 2e AD&D Player's Handbook:

Saving Throw Priority

Sometimes the type of saving throw required by a situation or item isn't clear, or more than one category of saving throw may seem appropriate. For this reason, the saving throw categories in Table 60 are listed in order of importance, beginning with paralyzation, poison, and death magic, and ending with spells.

Imagine that Rath is struck by the ray from a wand of polymorphing. Both a saving throw vs. wands and a saving throw vs. polymorph would be appropriate. But Rath must roll a saving throw vs. wands because that category has a higher priority than polymorph.

The categories of saving throws are as follows:

• Save vs. Paralyzation, Poison, and Death Magic: This is used whenever a character is affected by a paralyzing attack (regardless of source), poison (of any strength), or certain spells and magical items that otherwise kill the character outright (as listed in their descriptions). This saving throw can also be used in situations in which exceptional force of will or physical fortitude are needed.
• Save vs. Rod, Staff, or Wand: As its name implies, this is used whenever a character is affected by the powers of a rod, staff, or wand, provided another save of higher priority isn't called for. This saving throw is sometimes specified for situations in which a character faces a magical attack from an unusual source.
• Save vs. Petrification or Polymorph: This is used any time a character is turned to stone (petrified) or polymorphed by a monster, spell, or magical item (other than a wand). It can also be used when the character must withstand some massive physical alteration of his entire body.
• Save vs. Breath Weapon: A character uses this save when facing monsters with breath weapons, particularly the powerful blast of a dragon. This save can also be used in situations where a combination of physical stamina and Dexterity are critical factors in survival.
• Save vs. Spell: This is used whenever a character attempts to resist the effects of a magical attack, either by a spellcaster or from a magical item, provided no other type of saving throw is specified. This save can also be used to resist an attack that defies any other classification.

Not too terribly far off given that I was pulling from memory of something read over 20 years ago.

 

[Charlaquin]

Alright, based on the information people have referenced here, this is how I’d probably do it.

To convert saves from pre-3e sources:
• Effects that cause the Paralyzed or Petrified condition on a failed save always target Strength.
• Effects that cause the Poisoned condition and/or deal poison damage on a failed save always target Constitution.
• Effects that cause the Charmed or Frightened condition, deal psychic damage, or otherwise control the character’s mind (i.e. things that would be Will saves in 3.X) on a failed save always target Intelligence.
• Effects that deal necrotic damage on a failed save are made as flat saves with no ability modifier.
• Effects that deal any other type damage on a failed save alway target Dexterity.
• Other effects that require a saving throw usually target Wisdom, though use DM discretion (effects that force movement or knock prone should probably target Strength, for example).

To simulate pre-3e save progression:
• Change the standard save DC formula to 10 +Ability Mod +Proficiency Bonus, but leave save DCs of spells and other effects cast by magic items as-is.
• All creatures always add their Proficiency Bonus to all saving throws.
• Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings add double their Proficiency Bonus to all saving throws against spells and other magical effects, but do not add their Proficiency Bonus to the DCs of spells they cast (this replaces magic resistance for gnomes).
• Dwarves and Halflings add double their Proficiency Bonus to Constitution saves against poison (this replaces poison resistance for dwarves and stout halflings.)
• Clerics get +2 to all Con saves against poison, disease, and against any effect that deals poison or necrotic damage.
• Fighters, Monks, and Rangers get +1 to all saving throws.
• Paladins get +3 to all saving throws.
• Bards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Wizards get +2 to saves vs spells and other magical effects.
• Rogues get +2 to Dex saves against effects that allow them to take half damage on a successful save.

 

[James Gasik]

I just came across an oddity with regards to saving throws; in the 2e DMG rules for intelligent weapons (which I think are copied from the 1e DMG), some of the Special Purpose powers state that they activate on a hit with the weapon, then if a saving throw vs. SPELLS is failed.

This strikes me as odd, as not only should this probably be R/S/W, but also some of these effects would normally be handled by saving throws higher up on the hierarchy; like "paralysis for 1d4 rounds".

Is this an example of "the writer forgot how saves work" or "these abilities are meant to be extra potent"?

 

[Baron Opal II]

Is this an example of "the writer forgot how saves work" or "these abilities are meant to be extra potent"?

I would say it's save vs. Spells instead of R/S/W since there is an intelligence behind the magic. However, it is a generic statement, so for those abilities that would use a different save due to the hierarchy, you would do that instead as per usual.