Converting monsters from Second Edition Monstrous Compendiums

[Cleon]

Intelligence should be 1. Fish (magical and otherwise) aren't mindless in 3e.

I left the option open since there's no rule preventing them being non-intelligent like the AD&D original.

That said, I'd rather Lemon Fish be Int 1 since there's no mention of them being resistant to mind-influencing effects.

Besides, it lets us give them feats.

 

[Shade]

Added to Homebrews.

We need to first decide whether the lingering damage is caused by poison (like the original text suggests), pain from broken off spines, or some combination of the two.

 

[Cleon]

Added to Homebrews.

We need to first decide whether the lingering damage is caused by poison (like the original text suggests), pain from broken off spines, or some combination of the two.

I prefer spines that skewer their way through the opponent's body.

The way they last up to the fish's HD in rounds makes me think it's actually a supernatural attack, like a barbed devil's Barbed Defence. It'll give them some more justification for being Magical Beasts.

 

[freyar]

I like the idea of the skewering spines, but I'd prefer a more random duration (to go with a random damage). I also think there should be some poison involved somewhere, since the flesh seems to be poisonous while they're alive. Maybe a poison rider on the skewers?

 

[Shade]

I like the idea of the skewering spines, but I'd prefer a more random duration (to go with a random damage). I also think there should be some poison involved somewhere, since the flesh seems to be poisonous while they're alive. Maybe a poison rider on the skewers?

I tend to agree with all that. Should the skewering spines cause pain (similar to a symbol of pain) as well as dealing a minor amount of damage?

The term "poison" is a bit confusing, as it seems to be attributed to the stunning cloud and skewer lingering damage solely because they use a "save vs. poison" mechanic.

How about just lingering damage (and possibly pain) for the skewers, and treat the stun cloud as a venomous effect (like a troglodyte's stench), but not actual poison?

 

[freyar]

I actually got the idea of poison from

The flesh of a lemon fish is tough and generally inedible, though the organs of the fish are tasty and prized by duergar and drow. The fish’s toxicity is lost after its death, so consuming the animal poses no threat.

which seems to imply that their flesh is poisonous or they have a truly poisonous attack. But it's not a big issue.

I take it you want to add "A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws." to the stun cloud? That's fine. Sounds like a plan.

 

[Cleon]

I tend to agree with all that. Should the skewering spines cause pain (similar to a symbol of pain) as well as dealing a minor amount of damage?

I'd leave off the symbol of pain, since there's no mention of the spines being agonizing.

The term "poison" is a bit confusing, as it seems to be attributed to the stunning cloud and skewer lingering damage solely because they use a "save vs. poison" mechanic.

I was interpreting that "save vs. poison" as being more like a Fortitude check to expel the spines before they start working their way in.

Maybe that's the approach we should take? 1d6 damage per round until a successful Fortitude save or Heal check is made to expel the spines?

How about one of the following:

Tail-Spines (Ex) [Random Duration]: A lemon fish's tail is covered in porcupine-like spines. If the fish hits an opponent with its tail attack, the opponent must make a DC X Fortitude save or the spines work their way into their flesh, doing 1d6 piercing damage each round for 1d4 rounds (1d6 rounds for Medium-sized lemon fish and 1d8 rounds for Large-sized lemon fish). The spines can be removed with a successful DC 15 Heal check (DC 18 for Medium lemon fish, DC 20 for Large lemon fish). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Any creature that grapples a lemon fish must make a DC X Fortitude save or be impaled by its tail-spines, taking damage as above.

Tail-Spines (Ex) [Fort Save To End]: A lemon fish's tail is covered in porcupine-like spines. If the fish hits an opponent with its tail attack, the opponent must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save or take 1d6 piercing damage. The spines will work their way into the opponent's flesh, doing 1d6 piercing damage per round until the opponent succeeds at a Fortitude (DC X -1 per round after the first), which expels the spines.

The spines can be removed with a successful DC 15 Heal check (DC 18 for Medium lemon fish, DC 20 for Large lemon fish).

Any creature that grapples a lemon fish must make a DC X Fortitude save or be impaled by its tail-spines, taking damage as above.

The save DCs are Constitution-based.
​

Hmm, I think I'll change my mind and go for the "Random Damage" approach.

How about just lingering damage (and possibly pain) for the skewers, and treat the stun cloud as a venomous effect (like a troglodyte's stench), but not actual poison?

I was going to go for a "poisonous but not poison" approach like that, e.g.:

Stun Cloud (Ex): Once per day, an injured lemon fish can release a cloud of chemicals in a 5 ft. spread (10 ft. for a Medium-sized lemon fish, 15 ft. for a Large-sized lemon fish). All living creatures within this cloud except for other lemon fish must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for Y rounds. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. The save DC is Constitution-based.​

 

[Shade]

I take it you want to add "A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws." to the stun cloud? That's fine. Sounds like a plan.

Indeed.

I was interpreting that "save vs. poison" as being more like a Fortitude check to expel the spines before they start working their way in.

Maybe that's the approach we should take? 1d6 damage per round until a successful Fortitude save or Heal check is made to expel the spines?

I don't like the idea of "burrowing spines". Rather, I'd like 'em to work like harpoons, barbs, etc. Once they're in, you simply need to remove 'em with a Heal check, or take more damage.

Your stun cloud draft looks pretty close to what I was envisioning.

Revising...

Stun Cloud (Ex): Once per day, an injured lemon fish can release a cloud of chemicals in a 5-foot spread (10-foot for a Medium lemon fish and 15-foot for a Large fish). All living creatures within this cloud must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a stunned creature. The save DC is Constitution-based.

 

[Cleon]

Indeed.

I don't like the idea of "burrowing spines". Rather, I'd like 'em to work like harpoons, barbs, etc. Once they're in, you simply need to remove 'em with a Heal check, or take more damage.

Well is it just a question of terminology? There's no actual mention of "burrowing" in the description. The spines could lacerate the flesh or cause copious bleeding until they're removed rather than digging deeper in. I think the actual mechanics are OK, although I think I'd rather have the spine damage be variable rather than the duration.

Revising...

Tail-Spines (Ex) [Random Duration]: A lemon fish's tail is covered in porcupine-like spines. If the fish hits an opponent with its tail attack, the opponent must make a DC X Fortitude save or the spines work their way into their flesh, doing 1d6 piercing damage each round for 1d4 rounds (1d8 damage for a Medium-sized lemon fish's spines, 2d6 damage for Large-sized lemon fish). The spines can be removed with a successful DC 15 Heal check (DC 18 for Medium lemon fish, DC 20 for Large lemon fish). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Any creature that grapples a lemon fish must make a DC X Fortitude save or be impaled by its tail-spines, taking damage as above.

Your stun cloud draft looks pretty close to what I was envisioning.

Revising...

Stun Cloud (Ex): Once per day, an injured lemon fish can release a cloud of chemicals in a 5-foot spread (10-foot for a Medium lemon fish and 15-foot for a Large fish). All living creatures within this cloud must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a stunned creature. The save DC is Constitution-based.

That looks good to me.

 

[freyar]

I'm not sure that it's the nomenclature Shade doesn't like; I expect it's the damage every round that's the problem. I think I like the harpoon-like option myself, too.

Stun Cloud does look good.