Converting original D&D and Mystara monsters

Cleon

Adventurer
Let's go for Perform (dance) or Tumble. Does my proposed notes = check result - DC work for you? I think the 3.X equivalent would be DC 10.
Upon reflection, the original rule used a Dexterity check that did not require any special skill on the part of the caprine, so I'm reluctant to have the only Dex-based option be the Trained Only skill Tumble.

How about making it a DC 10 ability check OR a DC 15 skill check?

i.e.

Dancing: The caprine dances dizzily for at least 10 minutes with one or more willing dance partners. At the end of this period, the caprine attempts either a DC 10 Dexterity check, a DC 15 Perform (dance) check or a DC 15 Tumble check. If they succeed, they accumulate resonance notes equal to one plus the amount by which their check result exceeded the DC up to a maximum equal to the number of partners the caprine is dancing with. For example, a caprine that rolled 14 on a DC 10 Dexterity check would earn 5 resonance notes from Dancing provided it has five or more dancing partners.

I've thought of another couple of points I wanted to raise.

The original resonance accumulation abilities were level-dependent, as follows:

Cavorting: No level requirement
Music (changed to Performing): caprines level 2 or higher
Drinking: caprines level 3 or higher
Dancing: caprines level 4 or higher
Reveling: caprines level 5 or higher
Consorting: caprines level 6 or higher

Should we stick to that? It would be a simple matter of adding to "Caprines of 4 or higher Hit Dice can perform this resonance method." I'm inclined to forget about it for the Music and Drinking abilities since those are within the limits of the 3 HD "Normal Monster" version of the original Caprine.

Also, I was thinking we should add the following general rule:

With the exception of the most basic method of Cavorting, all resonance methods require skill or ability checks and the participation of one or more partners. The Aid Another action cannot be used to enhance the checks made to strike resonance but any other bonus to skill or ability checks apply, including the use the caprine's empowerment ability. Two or more caprines may simultaneously strike resonance off each other – for example, a group of caprines in a "dance party" can each use the dancing method and include the other caprines as their dancing partners. Each caprine in such a group makes their resonance checks separately.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I will agree to all that! Are we ready to move from dancing to the next one? Perhaps Music/Performing?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
OK, playing music it is. Mechanically, the original boils down to +1 note for each point that the check exceeds some DC, though I'm not seeing anything that indicates what the DC should be. I think I'd go with DC 10 Cha check vs DC 15 Perform check. That makes it similar to the Dancing but without the cap from the number of partners. Sound good to you?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
OK, playing music it is. Mechanically, the original boils down to +1 note for each point that the check exceeds some DC, though I'm not seeing anything that indicates what the DC should be. I think I'd go with DC 10 Cha check vs DC 15 Perform check. That makes it similar to the Dancing but without the cap from the number of partners. Sound good to you?
If I remember correctly the original used a straight roll-under ability check so, for example if a Charisma 15 caprine rolls a 13 it's 3 levels of success - two more than the "first level of success" of just matching the ability score.

Didn't I say that before on this thread though?

Also, there's still a cap equal to the number of people able to listen to the music as it's "1 note per listener".
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
You did probably say that, and I forgot since I don't get to post nearly as often as I'd like. But I think we converted that previously to a DC 10 ability check or DC 15 skill check, so how does that sound to you?

I don't interpret the notes=listeners bit as a cap as much as "one person stops to listen per 'success level,' and each listener contributes one resonance note." But I guess we should put in a caveat that the DM can limit the number of listeners in a remote setting, though honestly there should be enough fey or monsters around to contribute an effectively unlimited number of listeners almost anywhere in a D&D world.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
You did probably say that, and I forgot since I don't get to post nearly as often as I'd like. But I think we converted that previously to a DC 10 ability check or DC 15 skill check, so how does that sound to you?

I don't interpret the notes=listeners bit as a cap as much as "one person stops to listen per 'success level,' and each listener contributes one resonance note." But I guess we should put in a caveat that the DM can limit the number of listeners in a remote setting, though honestly there should be enough fey or monsters around to contribute an effectively unlimited number of listeners almost anywhere in a D&D world.
Okay, that'd make it something like this:

Music: The caprine plays music in front of a willing audience for at least 10 minutes. At the end of their performance, the caprine attempts either a DC 10 Charisma check or a DC 15 Perform (music) check. If they succeed, they accumulate resonance notes equal to one plus the amount by which their check result exceeded the DC up to a maximum equal to the number of intelligent creatures in the audience. For example, a caprine that rolled 14 on a DC 10 Dexterity check would earn 5 resonance notes from Music provided it has an audience numbering five or more.

We could add an 'alternative skill' to Perform (music) like we did with Dancing. Diplomacy seems appropriate.

Inspiring Performance: The caprine plays music or gives a speech to a willing audience for at least 10 minutes. At the end of their performance, the caprine attempts either a DC 10 Charisma check, a DC 15 Perform (music) check, or a DC 15 Diplomacy check. If they succeed, they accumulate resonance notes equal to one plus the amount by which their check result exceeded the DC up to a maximum equal to the number of intelligent creatures in the audience. For example, a caprine that rolled 14 on a DC 10 Dexterity check would earn 5 resonance notes from Music provided it has an audience numbering five or more.

I lean towards the Perform-only version though.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I'm fine with Perform only, but I still don't want the implied cap. I would instead write it like

Music: The caprine plays music in front of a willing audience for at least 10 minutes. At the end of their performance, the caprine attempts either a DC 10 Charisma check or a DC 15 Perform (music) check. If they succeed, a number of intelligent creatures equal to 1 plus the amount by which the caprine's check exceeds the DC gather to listen, and the caprine gains one resonance note per audience member. For example, a caprine that rolled 14 on a DC 10 Dexterity check would earn 5 resonance notes and gather an audience of 5 creatures. However, if the DM deems that there are not sufficient intelligent creatures nearby, the caprine can only gain notes up to the maximum practical size of the audience.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
I'm fine with Perform only, but I still don't want the implied cap. I would instead write it like

Music: The caprine plays music in front of a willing audience for at least 10 minutes. At the end of their performance, the caprine attempts either a DC 10 Charisma check or a DC 15 Perform (music) check. If they succeed, a number of intelligent creatures equal to 1 plus the amount by which the caprine's check exceeds the DC gather to listen, and the caprine gains one resonance note per audience member. For example, a caprine that rolled 14 on a DC 10 Dexterity check would earn 5 resonance notes and gather an audience of 5 creatures. However, if the DM deems that there are not sufficient intelligent creatures nearby, the caprine can only gain notes up to the maximum practical size of the audience.
I'm fine with that, except that I just realized it still has a stray "Dexterity check" from being copied from the Dancing notes.

Updating the Resonance Working Draft.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Imbibing looks pretty similar to to Music but with a Con check. Can you think of any skill to go along with it? Profession (cooking) or something? That doesn't seem quite right.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Imbibing looks pretty similar to to Music but with a Con check. Can you think of any skill to go along with it? Profession (cooking) or something? That doesn't seem quite right.
I was thinking we'd use Concentration and Autohypnosis on the basis that the caprine isn't making the drinks, but trying to keep a sober enough head to collect the resonance notes.

i.e.:

Imbibing: The caprine shares flagons of strong drink with a group of revelllers for at least 10 minutes. At the end of the merry drinking, the caprine attempts either a DC 10 Constitution check or a DC 15 Concentration check (or a DC 15 Autohypnosis check if the campaign uses the Psionics rules). If they succeed, a number of intelligent creatures equal to 1 plus the amount by which the caprine's check exceeds the DC stop to share a toast, and the caprine gains one resonance note per drinker. For example, a caprine that rolled 18 on a DC 15 Concentration check would earn 4 resonance notes and drink a toast with 4 creatures. However, if the DM deems that there are not sufficient intelligent creatures available, the caprine can only gain notes up to the maximum practical size of the drinking party.

The original text has "how many people in a crowd stop to have a drink, especially if it's free", which suggests adding:

A caprine normally uses this ability somewhere people are already imbibing, such as a busy tavern or rowdy party. If the caprine has to pay for the drinks it usually costs 1 sp per person (minimum 1 gp?). High-quality (i.e. "masterwork") drinks may be available that grant a +2 circumstance bonus on the resonance-gathering check but cost 2 gp per person (minimum 20 gp?).
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I like that, including your proposed addition there.

Actually, before we move to Reveling, should we have these methods get stronger as they go up? Music, Imbibing, and Dancing all work pretty much the same way and yield basically the same number of notes. Or are we happy with just having them as alternatives since each is useful only once per cycle?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
I like that, including your proposed addition there.
Updating the Resonance Working Draft.

Actually, before we move to Reveling, should we have these methods get stronger as they go up? Music, Imbibing, and Dancing all work pretty much the same way and yield basically the same number of notes. Or are we happy with just having them as alternatives since each is useful only once per cycle?
I was thinking we'd have the two higher-level resonance gathering methods (Reveling and Consorting) gain more points than the four "basic methods".

The original Reveling method had the Caprine make three checks (it effectively uses Dancing, Imbibing & Music simultaneously) with a crowd of at least 20 celebrants and if at least two of the checks succeed it uses the best result to determine the resonance points. However, it can make repeated attempts at the resonance rolls until it fails at two or more to see if it can increase the result. Also, if it rolls higher than the original number of celebrants more just "show up", so there's no participation cap on the resonance points.

That doesn't change the maximum points it can gather compared to the standard methods, just gives it multiple chances to roll it… I'd be game simplifying the roll somehow (probably just have it roll once per skill/ability) and perhaps allowing a higher number of resonance points than the basic methods (maybe use the highest result like normal plus half the resonance from the other successes?). I am also wondering about maybe increase the DC of the checks rather than use the "must succeed at two" method.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
OK, that's fair enough; let's keep the previous three similar and ramp up the next two.

I think I'd like to simplify the Reveling method. Just make the 3 checks once each and add the amounts they each exceed the DC to get the charmed companions/notes. I wouldn't increase the DC since (a) the caprine already has to meet an HD limit and (b) they have to gather 20 HD of companions before they start.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
OK, that's fair enough; let's keep the previous three similar and ramp up the next two.

I think I'd like to simplify the Reveling method. Just make the 3 checks once each and add the amounts they each exceed the DC to get the charmed companions/notes. I wouldn't increase the DC since (a) the caprine already has to meet an HD limit and (b) they have to gather 20 HD of companions before they start.
That's potentially three times the resonance of the previous methods, which seems a bit too much. I'd be more inclined to use the highest success rating with a bonus of, say, +5 resonance for succeeding at one of the other skill checks. i.e. if all three succeed it's "highest check +10".

I'd definitely drop the "allowed to repeat attempts" rule of the original.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Hmm, that's fair. Let's go with your "highest check plus bonus" method.

Sorry I disappeared. Got busy IRL and then got dragged into another thread where I had to correct some poor physics. Sucked up all my EN World time.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Hmm, that's fair. Let's go with your "highest check plus bonus" method.
Okay, how about this:

Reveling: Caprines of 5 or higher Hit Dice can perform this resonance striking method. The caprine must join or gather a group of at least 20 intelligent creatures and "party" for at least 1 hour. The caprine then makes three skill or ability checks as if they were simultaneously performing the Music, Imbibing and Dancing resonance methods. If they succeed on any of these checks, they gain resonance equal to the check that produced the greatest number of resonance points using the methods detailed in the Music, Imbibing and Dancing methods (as appropriate), plus a bonus of 5 points if they succeeded at 2 of the checks or 10 points if they succeeded at all three. Unlike the other methods, there is no cap based on the number of revellers. If the result exceeds the number of participants present when the revels begin additional intelligent creatures will join the celebration.

Example: A caprine completes a revelry and rolls a 21 Perform (flute) for Music, a 19 Con for Imbibing, and a 13 Tumble for Dancing. The DC 15 Tumble check is a failure, the DC 15 Perform check is a 6-point success and the DC 10 Con check is a 10-point success. The highest success is the Con results, so the caprine earns 15 resonance points; 10 from the success level plus a bonus of 5 for succeeding on two checks.

Sorry I disappeared.
These things happen.

Got busy IRL and then got dragged into another thread where I had to correct some poor physics. Sucked up all my EN World time.
I am immediately reminded of this xkcd post:



Hopefully it didn't consume all your time.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
That looks good to me! Let's add it and move to the next one. Which I guess is "consorting." In the original text, I don't think there's anything for the caprine to do because of the way saves worked. But maybe the caprine and partner/object make opposed Cha checks or something? Any thoughts?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
That looks good to me!
Updating the Resonance Working Draft.

I switched the formatting of "Example:" from italic to bold plus indented paragraph so the text flows flow a little better.

Which I guess is "consorting." In the original text, I don't think there's anything for the caprine to do because of the way saves worked. But maybe the caprine and partner/object make opposed Cha checks or something? Any thoughts?
Here's the original text:

Harvest the Fruit of Passion:
The world belongs to the bold and dashing caprines level 6 or higher. A night of heaven with the fairest of them all will echo throughout the ether of this world. The object of the caprine's attention must fail a saving throw vs paralysis for the suitor to prevail. Two penalties apply: a) -5 if charmed, b) subtract the caprine's Cha bonus adjustment, c) -1 per aptly role-plated courtship maneuvers at the DM's discretion.

To determine the actual harmonic resonance, add the partners Cha bonus to the amount by which the saving throw failed. If the caprine is of lower level than his partner, multiply the result above by the difference in their levels/HD. Following particularly raucous nights, partners other than dryads may expect a commitment in absence of which said partners may feel rather miffed and eager for requital.

Duration: 1 night or 1d4+4 hours …… Resonance: see above


The caprine can improve the odds of success by "aptly role-plated courtship maneuvers" or simply charming the prospective partner.

I'm tempted to make it a bit more "PG" by allowing the caprine and their partner to generate resonate by any activity two people can perform together passionately rather than just… what a "night of heaven" implies. They could just have a really intense game of tennis or recite poems at each other, for example.

Also the charm option is a bit "rapey". Maybe change it so charmed targets are easier to "consort" with but generate a lot less resonance? At least have something to encourage the "courtship" approach. Hell, as written the caprine could court the target and then charm them to stack the bonuses, which just seems wrong.

I'm also not in favour of the multiplying approach to generating resonance from a higher-HD partner. If a 10th level caprine revels with a 15 HD creature they'll get five times the resonance amount in the original version. I'd rather it was just a flat +X resonance per HD the partner is higher. Perhaps we could have the "courtship bonus" double up to increase the resonance generated as well as affect the ability check?

I think we should agree on the rough amount of resonance this method should generate and then reverse-engineer the equation used to figure it out. I'm thinking we ought to base it on the Charisma, Constitution and HD of the two participants, modified by some skill or ability check.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Whew, have to agree with you there. Let's allow less ..explicit.. activities as you suggest. As for charm, I'm inclined to make it that charmed, dominated, suggested, otherwise mind-influenced targets don't generate any resonance, just to take it off the table. In other words, it has to be a pure Cha or Diplomacy or whatever check.

OK, for the reverse-engineering, maybe we should aim for points a bit higher than Reveling gets. Something like partner's Cha score plus the amount the caprine's check exceeds the DC plus a flat bonus for role-playing (perhaps) plus maybe +1 per HD that the partner has in excess of the caprine. Does that work, or is it too much?
 

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