Converting the Dukes of Hell

[BOZ]

Hello! Welcome to our first (and probably will be the only) mega-project.

In this thread, we will be attempting to convert the stats of all the major, unique Dukes of Hell from 1st edition. This does not include any of the current Lords of the Nine, and encompasses the following 59 unique devils (from Monster Manual II, Dragon 75, 76, and 91): Moloch, (maybe Geryon too, pre-death), Amon, Bael, Bitru, Hutijin, Titivilus, Amduscias, Malphas, Nergal, Bist, Caim, Lilis, Arioch, Biffant, Merodach, Alocer, Focalor, Caarcrinolaas, Melchon, Naome, Chamo, Balan, Bathym, Gaziel, Cozbi, Gorson, Herodias, Agares, Machalas, Lilith, Tartach, Bileth, Baftis, Neabaz, Barbatos, Abigor, Zepar, Baalphegor, Bele, Adonides, Barbas, Bifrons, Bensozia, Adramalech, Phongor, Buer, Bune, Morax, Rimmon, Zagum, Armaros, Azazel, Cahor, Dagon, Duskur, Kochibel, Malarea, Nisroch, and Rumjal (not in that particular order, though).

NOTE: Those in bold have since appeared in Dragon Online's Infernal Aristocracy articles.

These beings will appear on the Creature Catalog site when finished, and we will be working on them one layer of Hell at a time. We will start with Avernus (which will include the most conversions, considering the outcast dukes), then Dis, Minauros, Phelegthos, Stygia, Malbolge, Maladomini, Caina, and then Nessus.

The target CRs for most of these creatures will be higher than a pit fiend, and lower than Dispater's in Book of Vile Darkness. We'll see how that comes out as we go. I think before doing any conversions, we'll need to set a range for HD.

Thoughts, and initial reactions?

 

[Shade]

Initial reaction: Woo-hoo!

HD Range:

A pit fiend has 18 HD at CR 20. That should be rock-bottom for these guys.

The BoVD Dispater has 34 HD at CR 26. I'm assuming that is our uppermost range.

HD by CR in this range:

CR 20: Pit fiend (18 HD), Aspect of Bel (22 HD), Bel (26 HD)
CR 21: Aspect of Belial (30 HD), Aspect of Dispater (28 HD), Aspect of Levistus (25 HD),
Aspect of Mammon (28 HD)
CR 22: Aspect of Glasya (28 HD), Geryon (30 HD), The Hag Countess (33 HD)
CR 23: Aspect of Baalzebul (30 HD)
CR 24: Aspect of Mephistopheles (30 HD), Belial (36 HD), Fierna (36 HD)
CR 25: Mammon (34 HD), Levistus (33 HD)
CR 26: Dispater (34 HD)

 

[BOZ]

Given that the CR range is very small, whereas the HD range should be bigger, I'd rather start with HD and let the CR-chips fall where they may, accordingly.

The 1E pit fiend had 13 HD, which if you assume an average of 4.5 on a d8 would mean the average one would have 58 hp; thus, a whole lot less than the average duke.

Moloch should still be powerful like the other archdevils, but of course his political influence and the advantages of controlling a whole layer are gone. It still shows that he was merely one of the most powerful dukes before gaining his own layer, since he has the same hp as Amon.

Going by the assumption that a pit fiend would have had 58 hp, then the absolute weakest of the unique devils was Lilis, who was just a little bit more powerful than a pit fiend (in terms of hp at least). The weakest of the original archdevils were Moloch, Geryon, and Mammon (again, in terms of hp). Almost all of the dukes had fewer hp than Moloch; the only exceptions being Bael, Amon, Gorson, and Buer (who tie with him), Chamo, Herodias, Adramalech, and Zagum (who are slightly higher than him), Bune and Morax (who are higher than Geryon), and Bifrons (who is even higher than Mammon!); all dukes are below Dispater in terms of HD though, which supports my statement that the projected CRs should be below his BoVD stats.

Speaking of BoVD stats, let’s have a quick look at the HDs of some of those lords: Dispater 34, Mammon 34, Belial 36, Baalzebul 38, Mephistopheles 38, and Asmodeus 35 (for some unknown reason). A 3.5 pit fiend has 18 HD. So, likely, Lilis would be at 19 or 20 HD, and we could put Bifrons as high as 34, making all others fall somewhere in between. What we need to do is figure out a scale.

Here’s a possible method; going up by 6’s.

HD – 1E hp
21 – 60-66
22 – 66-72
23 – 72-78
24 – 78-84
25 – 84-90
26 – 90-96
27 – 96-102
28 – 102-108
29 – 108-114
30 – 114-120
31 – 120-126
32 – 126-132
33 – 132-138
34 – 138-144

Going that way, most dukes would have HD in the mid-high 20s, with a few breaking over 30, and only some of the consorts going below 25 HD. I’d be willing to adjust that down by one, if you feel strongly that the dukes should all be at least one step below the archdevils HD-wise, but I’d put even Lilis at no less than 20-HD.

(Tiamat)
Amduscias - 92
Malphas - 90

Nergal - 106
Bist - 90
Caim - 93
Armaros - 99
Azazel - 97
Cahor - 93
Dagon - 91
Duskur - 111
Kochibel - 104
Malarea - 96
Nisroch - 99
Rumjal - 100

Dispater - 144
Lilis - 66
Titivilus - 86
Arioch - 123
Biffant - 84
Merodach - 92
Alocer - 90
Bitru - 99

Mammon - 139
Bael - 126
Glasya - 69
Focalor - 121
Caarcrinolaas - 104
Melchon - 101

Belial - 154
Naome - 69
Chamo - 131
Balan - 112
Bathym - 102
Gaziel - 116

Geryon - 133
Cozbi - 67
Amon - 126
Gorson - 126
Herodias - 129
Agares - 119
Machalas - 122

Moloch - 126
Lilith - 71
Tartach - 114
Bileth - 121

Baalzebul - 166
Baftis - 79
Neabaz - 124
Barbatos - 122
Abigor - 120
Zepar - 118

Mephistopheles - 188
Baalphegor - 82
Hutijin - 111
Bele - 112
Adonides - 121
Barbas - 110
Bifrons - 141

Asmodeus - 199
Bensozia - 86
Adramalech - 133
Phongor - 129
Buer - 126
Bune - 136
Morax - 135
Rimmon - 125
Zagum - 127

 

[Shade]

Also, note that a couple of the Dukes had (abbreviated) stats in BovD and its web enhancement:

Amon (CR 18; HD 26d8+234; hp 351)
Martinet (CR 13; HD HD 18d8+90; hp 171)

3E CR notwithstanding, Amon is Bel's (Bael's) equal in both 1E and 3E in terms of HD.

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

i'm not thinking of messing with Martinet at the moment, although i do want to get to Amon; note that with my above chart, Amon will definitely be higher than his BoVD WE stats. also, Bel and Bael are two separate individuals (believe it or not; a few of these names are awfully close).

i took the liberty of filling in the names from the above list into my range chart:

HD – 1E hp
21 – 60-66 – Lilis*
22 – 66-72 – Naome, Cozbi, Lilith
23 – 72-78 -
24 – 78-84 – Biffant*, Baftis, Baalphegor
25 – 84-90 – Malphas*, Bist*, Titivilus, Alocer*, Bensozia
26 – 90-96 – Amduscias, Caim, Cahor, Dagon, Malarea*, Merodach
27 – 96-102 – Armaros, Azazel, Nisroch, Rumjal, Bitru, Melchon, Bathym*
28 – 102-108 – Nergal, Kochibel, Caarcrinolaas
29 – 108-114 – Duskur, Balan, Tartach*, Hutijin, Bele, Barbas
30 – 114-120 – Gaziel, Agares, Abigor*, Zepar
31 – 120-126 – Arioch, Bael*, Focalor, Amon*, Gorson*, Machalas, Moloch*, Bileth, Neabaz, Barbatos, Adonides, Buer*, Rimmon
32 – 126-132 – Chamo, Herodias, Phongor, Zagum
33 – 132-138 – Geryon, Adramalech, Bune, Morax
34 – 138-144 - Bifrons

That gives us 7 in the 20-24 HD range, 27 in the 25-29 HD range, and 26 in the 30-34 HD range. However, note that any lord with a * falls on the edge of moving up to the next range; I left all of these on the lower range with the potential for moving up. Personally, I nominate at least Moloch and Amon to go up to 32-HD.

 

[Shade]

That looks doable.

 

[Shade]

Other noteworthy archdevil traits (based on FCII avatar versions):

• SR = 13 + CR
• Languages: Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal; telepathy 100 ft.
• Dark Speech feat
• Regeneration (5 for CR 19-21, 6 for toughest CR 21 and all CR 22, 8 for CR 23-24)
• DR 20/good and silver

Regeneration (Ex): Good weapons, and spells and effects with the good descriptor, deal normal damage to archdevil. If archdevil loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes. Archdevil can reaattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Standard devil traits:

• Immunity to fire and poison.
• Resistance to acid 10 and cold 10.
• See in Darkness (Su): All baatezu can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.
• Summon (Sp): Baatezu share the ability to summon others of their kind (the success chance and type of baatezu summoned are noted in each monster description).
• Telepathy.
• Except where otherwise noted, devils speak Infernal, Celestial, and Draconic.

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

that sounds like a good point to start from; might as well standardize all of that. anything you'd care to add from the BoVD stats?

as i was looking through the Dragon 75 & 76 dukes, i noted that all, or nearly all of them had a fear ability - by touch, gaze, or aura (and i think one even had a breath weapon!), but we can handle those individually when the time comes. nearly all were given a summoning power. i think all had SLAs of course, as well - though the lists are likely to need to grow. do you have a comparative list of SLAs common to devils and archdevils?

i was also thinking we should probably also have an ability score array for these guys to make things even easier - maybe add one point per HD to give the tougher guys an even edge. that, and/or +1 / 4 HD. we should figure out what that needs to be, to be comparable to other archdevils.

 

[Garnfellow]

I think we had developed some standard archdevil abilities based on the BoVD in an earlier thread . . . something like "Statting Epic Level Fiends"?

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

yes, i recall that thread, but i haven't had a look at it in awhile.

 

[Grazzt]

i was also thinking we should probably also have an ability score array for these guys to make things even easier - maybe add one point per HD to give the tougher guys an even edge. that, and/or +1 / 4 HD. we should figure out what that needs to be, to be comparable to other archdevils.

Cool thread. Thanks for the heads up Boz-man.

Just my 2-cents. I would set up an array for use when doing these guys. The 3e DDG book used an array for the gods, and IIRC I added up the ability scores for the demons and devils in BoVD and they were fairly close as well (unless Im remember wrong).

I did use an array for the demons/devils in Tome 1, 2, and 3. (And likely will do so in Tome 4 should we 100% green light that project).

 

[BOZ]

thanks scott. take your coat off and stick around for awhile.

I think we had developed some standard archdevil abilities based on the BoVD in an earlier thread . . . something like "Statting Epic Level Fiends"?

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=68129

not sure how useful it will be, since that was over 3 years ago. well, there is some useful stuff on page 2 actually (and a little more on p3).

it did remind me of AC bonuses though. looking through FC2, i see that most of the aspects have +5 deflection bonuses, and many have armor or shield bonuses. in BoVD, they all had insight bonuses, while Bel had a deflection bonuses, and Dispater has a shield bonuses. naturally (heh), all should have natural AC bonuses, but we should figure out how that is determined.

 

[Shade]

Hi Scott!

it did remind me of AC bonuses though. looking through FC2, i see that most of the aspects have +5 deflection bonuses, and many have armor or shield bonuses. in BoVD, they all had insight bonuses, while Bel had a deflection bonuses, and Dispater has a shield bonuses. naturally (heh), all should have natural AC bonuses, but we should figure out how that is determined.

Note that in FCII, those deflection bonuses are attributed to most of them possessing rings of protection.

Many also have cloaks of resistance.

Belial also has an amulet of natural armor, which does nothing for him since he already has a natural armor bonus.

 

[BOZ]

whaaaat! well we're ignoring that .

 

[Grazzt]

whaaaat! well we're ignoring that .

If ya wanna ignore it, give them a deflection bonus (or whatever) based on their Charisma modifier/bonus. That's how I did it in Tome. (Doesnt jive with the 'official' stuff I guess...but seemed to make sense at the time...to me anyway)

 

[Knight Otu]

Belial also has an amulet of natural armor, which does nothing for him since he already has a natural armor bonus.

An amulet of natural armor does stack* with existing natural armor. I've got no real input at this time, but since I'm not subscribed to this thread, I'll poke my head in from time to time.

*Technically, it increases the bonus. It grants an enhancement bonus to the natural armor bonus.

 

[BOZ]

If ya wanna ignore it, give them a deflection bonus (or whatever) based on their Charisma modifier/bonus. That's how I did it in Tome. (Doesnt jive with the 'official' stuff I guess...but seemed to make sense at the time...to me anyway)

either that, or an insight bonus equal to Wis mod (kind of like they have in BoVD, but not exactly). i'll be fine with either.

that, and we need a mechanic to determine what the natural armor should be (again, to make it easier on us later). 1/2 HD might be a good number, for example. maybe that plus Con mod?

 

[Shade]

An amulet of natural armor does stack* with existing natural armor. I've got no real input at this time, but since I'm not subscribed to this thread, I'll poke my head in from time to time.

*Technically, it increases the bonus. It grants an enhancement bonus to the natural armor bonus.

Well I'll be...you learn something new every day.

either that, or an insight bonus equal to Wis mod (kind of like they have in BoVD, but not exactly). i'll be fine with either.

I'm fine with the insight bonus, since the Demonomicon versions of the archfiends retain it.

that, and we need a mechanic to determine what the natural armor should be (again, to make it easier on us later). 1/2 HD might be a good number, for example. maybe that plus Con mod?

I'm not sure if a formula was used for any of the others, so I'm not convinced we need to get locked into one here. It might be best just to "eyeball" it on an individual basis.

For ability score arrays, here's how the others look, by CR:

CR 19
Fierna: Str 27, Dex 23, Con 25, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 37

CR 20
Pit Fiend: Str 37, Dex 27, Con 27, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 26
Aspect of Bel: Str 38, Dex 15, Con 30, Int 27, Wis 27, Cha 25
Bel: Str 40, Dex 16, Con 32, Int 27, Wis 27, Cha 25

CR 21
Belial: Str 27, Dex 23, Con 25, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 37
Aspect of Dispater: Str 37, Dex 14, Con 35, Int 29, Wis 22, Cha 29
Aspect of Levistus: Str 24, Dex 24, Con 29, Int 25, Wis 32, Cha 27
Aspect of Mammon: Str 34, Dex 15, Con 33, Int 28, Wis 29, Cha 25

CR 22
Aspect of Glasya: Str 27, Dex 34, Con 27, Int 27, Wis 28, Cha 36
Geryon: Str 36, Dex 19, Con 35, Int 26, Wis 24, Cha 23
Hag Countess: Str 31, Dex 26, Con 24, Int 28, Wis 31, Cha 28

CR 23
Aspect of Baalzebul: Str 39, Dex 13, Con 34, Int 28, Wis 27, Cha 25

CR 24
Aspect of Mephistopheles: Str 25, Dex 27, Con 26, Int 27, Wis 31, Cha 28
Belial: Str 29, Dex 25, Con 27, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 39
Fierna: Str 29, Dex 25, Con 27, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 39

CR 25
Mammon: Str 36, Dex 17, Con 35, Int 30, Wis 31, Cha 27
Levistus: Str 26, Dex 26, Con 31, Int 27, Wis 34, Cha 29

CR 26
Dispater: Str 39, Dex 16, Con 37, Int 31, Wis 24, Cha 31

 

[BOZ]

I'm fine with the insight bonus, since the Demonomicon versions of the archfiends retain it.

good deal - that'll keep it simple.

I'm not sure if a formula was used for any of the others, so I'm not convinced we need to get locked into one here. It might be best just to "eyeball" it on an individual basis.

OK then, to make it easy, maybe we could come up with a chart based on "if it's 1E AC was X, then it's 3E AC should be X" (with some slight adjustment based on CR?) and just assign nat armor based on what is left over given the devil's other modifiers.

For ability score arrays, here's how the others look, by CR:

OK, i'll have a look at that to see if i can guess a pattern.

obviously, that's a lot heftier than the elite array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

by the same token, it's weaker than the deity array, which per the Deities and Demigods FAQ is 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24, along with 1 ability point per divine rank, and the usual 1 ability point per four class levels, and any applicable racial adjustments.

happy medium perhaps?

 

[Shade]

OK then, to make it easy, maybe we could come up with a chart based on "if it's 1E AC was X, then it's 3E AC should be X" (with some slight adjustment based on CR?) and just assign nat armor based on what is left over given the devil's other modifiers.

That could work.

OK, i'll have a look at that to see if i can guess a pattern.

obviously, that's a lot heftier than the elite array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

by the same token, it's weaker than the deity array, which per the Deities and Demigods FAQ is 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24, along with 1 ability point per divine rank, and the usual 1 ability point per four class levels, and any applicable racial adjustments.

happy medium perhaps?

Hmmm...in the past when we converted unique entities, didn't we just determine the ability score total points available, and then divide as we saw fit? That might work better than attempting an array, unless we can determine the pattern.