D&D 5E Convince me that the Ranger is a necessary Class.

[AnotherGuy]

Given @ezo's table earlier and how powerful build disconnects us from our fantasy wouldn't the fix be to increase the damage (at the minimum) for creatures you'd expect to be mountains stronger than our 5-7 foot PCs?

I look at the STR of giants and others and it just seems pitiful...

EDIT: An alternate method would be to have giants and other such creatures inflict conditions with each hit (save against a level of Exhaustion, save against a Lingering Injury, save against Stunned...etc)

 

[ezo]

I look at the STR of giants and others and it just seems pitiful...

It is, especially in terms such as lifting, etc. As creatures get larger, just doubling lifting is insufficient IMO.

Here is something we added:

If the thrown creature his a solid object, such as a wall, it takes falling damage (plus the STR mod of the thrower), otherwise damage is half.

A creature can be thrown into another as well, by making an attack roll against the target.

 

[ECMO3]

You misunderstand. They are essentially the same because they build actual strength, unlike gymnasts who only build some strength.

You misunderstand. Body builders build muscle, not strength and they are not world class athletes when it comes to strength.

This distinction is fundamental to your theory that big muscles = strength.

Look at the guy in the first photo I posted. He is actually "The Worlds Strongest Man" and he is big but he does not have big Arnold Swarzeneggar muscles.

Look at the photo of the guy Remathlis posted, he was "the worlds strongest man" in 2023 and his muscles are even smaller than the muscles on the photo of the Gymnast that Ezo posted above that.

 

[Maxperson]

You misunderstand. Body builders build muscle, not strength and they are not world class athletes when it comes to strength.

Irrelevant. They do in fact build strength. You and a body builder arm wrestle. Who is going to win. Those body builders easily qualify for 18/00 or stronger 1e strength scores and probably are at 19 or 20 for 5e.

This distinction is fundamental to your theory that big muscles = strength.

Look at the guy in the first photo I posted. He is actually "The Worlds Strongest Man" and he does not have big Arnold Swarzeneggar muscles.

Look at the guy Remathlis posted, he was "the worlds strongest man" in 2023 and his muscles are even quite a bit smaller than those of the Gymnast that Ezo posted above that.

No. The 2023 guy's muscles dwarf the gymnasts. They just aren't as well defined. The gymnast has no fat.

 

[ezo]

Those body builders easily qualify for 18/00 or stronger 1e strength scores and probably are at 19 or 20 for 5e.

While normally I would agree with you, I can't on this little point.

I agree it is close, and professional body builders might be 18%, but in 1E 18/00 could military press about 480 lbs, which no body builder is going to be able to do. Even professional lifters would be hard pressed (no pun intended) to match this.

It works out nicely for 5E that STR 18 is also 480 lbs.

Considering Strength is a composite of the three elements I discussed above, I don't know if anyone IRL would have a STR 19 or 20.

Of course, 5E is not as exact in what it means by "lift"... so it's difficult to say with any certainty.

 

[ECMO3]

Irrelevant. They do in fact build strength. You and a body builder arm wrestle. Who is going to win.

When I was younger and in the military me. No doubt in my mind.

I actually have a body builder in my family and although he is younger and stronger than I am now, I don't think he is any stronger than his cousins who are nearly the same age as he is.

No. The 2023 guy's muscles dwarf the gymnasts. They just aren't as well defined. The gymnast has no fat.

No they aren't look at the diameter of his arm and the gymnasts arm. Add a layer of fat on to the gymnast and his arm is quite a bit bigger.

More to the point the Bodybuilder's muscles which dwarf everyone's, The body builders muscles are much, much bigger than either of the strongmen. Yet the two "stongmen" by any definition are stronger than he is and would CRUSH him in an arm wrestle. Not just beat him CRUSH him. I think the Gymnast would beat the body builder in an arm wrestle too.

If big muscles meant big strength then body builders would be winning strongman competitions and they aren't winning that or any other athletic events.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Saying a bodybuilder is as strong as a weightlifter is like saying a Working Clydesdale is a strong as a champion dressage horse. They're built, but for different things. Also, I'm fairly sure dehydrating yourself for definition might effect your physical performance -- not to mention the inherent melee accuracy D&D ascribes to strength.

 

[Maxperson]

When I was younger and in the military me. No doubt in my mind.

I actually have a body builder in my family and although he is younger and stronger than I am now, I don't think he is any stronger than his cousins who are nearly the same age as he is.



No they aren't look at the diameter of his arm and the gymnasts arm. Add a layer of fat on to the gymnast and his arm is quite a bit bigger.

More to the point the Bodybuilder's muscles which dwarf everyone's, The body builders muscles are much, much bigger than either of the strongmen. Yet the two "stongmen" by any definition are stronger than he is and would CRUSH him in an arm wrestle. Not just beat him CRUSH him. I think the Gymnast would beat the body builder in an arm wrestle too.

If big muscles meant big strength then body builders would be winning strongman competitions and they aren't winning that or any other athletic events.

Nope. Those arms are much larger, even if you give the gymnast a some fat for the arms.

 

[ezo]

While this has little to nothing to do with Rangers, going back to rolling 4d6, drop lowest, your chance of getting a set of scoes with a higher average over the standard array is only 56% or so. Which, of course, means you have a 44% chance of rolling worse. It's a gamble, of course...

In a different light, I find it odd that you can roll hit points or take the average rounded up.

In one case, you can risk rolling with a decent chance of doing better, and in the other you can risk rolling, but you will more likely roll worse...

 

[ECMO3]

Nope. Those arms are much larger, even if you give the gymnast a some fat for the arms.

View attachment 365569

Look at the photos you are posting. These muscles are MUCH closer to the size of the gymnasts muscles than they are to the body builders muscles. MUCH closer.

Put the photos side by side.