D&D 5E Convince me that the Ranger is a necessary Class.

[doctorbadwolf]

Agreed.
And you still want to take Ritual caster to do some magic.

The 4e Ranger could kill anything but it stunk at actually finding and getting to the thing needed to be killed.

The 4e Ranger was so bad tbh. I never understood why anyone liked it outside of white room CharOp power gamers.

Tools have a direction gameplay loop due to its typical different resource management system.

They can, or they can be simple and work with the rest of the design of the class.

Nah. The Martial/Spell Ranger is expected to use a spell in the majority of its major combats or explorations. The Dabbler runs more like a straight fighter and has a few weak spells to get serious

You just described what I described, using a positive tone instead of a negative one.

Not gonna get a pet that can survive dragon breaths or magic AOE without dedication of >50% of the class to it.

Sure you can. The steel defender with one of the better buff spells cast on it manages it already. If it had the option of pet specific infusions, and/or some “you can cast spells that target self on the steel defender” feature, including things like Absorb Elements, it would be all the way there. Spend an infusion to allow the pet to cast spells on itself using its own actions, and a high level one to let it concentrate on its own spell. You’ll still be a caster with extra attack using your casting stat, good magic items, good spell selection, etc.

Agreed.

I've seen people describe this gameplay in their disappointment of the BM Ranger.

I’ve seen folks complain that the only real pet option is a weak subclass that doesn’t do what they want from a pet tamer.

The point is you can't point to the Warlock as an example as it's pet is not a combat pet.

Yes you can because the pet can be used in combat once you take the necessary invocation, and it could easily have more invocations to pump it up even more.

Again the point is the idea that you easily can make a class that can split into 5 separate direction without introducing abuse or having 1 or more of those direction being unsatisfactory is wishful thinking.

The Ranger doesn’t need 5 directions. It needs support for a specialization option in addition to and alongside subclass, and all its options would be totally compatible with the base class.

The entire strength of class based RPG gaming is that you can focus on a particular type of archetype by designing a class purposely with those archetypal tropes and balance them with the fact that the different abilities are siloed away from each other by being in different classes.

Which works just fine with a ranger that can choose to have a pet, or a big buff to skills, or cantrips and extra spells, or a beefy boost to melee capability.

 

[Minigiant]

Which works just fine with a ranger that can choose to have a pet, or a big buff to skills, or cantrips and extra spells, or a beefy boost to melee capability

I just think that the chances of success in creating such a ranger is low whereas siloing out Beastmaster and Shaman into their own classes and letting people just make a character of their own design by multiclassing Fighter Rogue Ranger Beastmaster Shaman and Druid in the combination of their desire would have a lot more success.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I just think that the chances of success in creating such a ranger is low whereas siloing out Beastmaster and Shaman into their own classes and letting people just make a character of their own design by multiclassing Fighter Rogue Ranger Beastmaster Shaman and Druid in the combination of their desire would have a lot more success.

I get that, and I’m usually all for more classes with specific focus over broader classes.

I just think that the Ranger can do what 90% of people want from it…but wotc just keeps doing weird nonsense instead of trying to actually do that.

And maybe the solution is for the BM to be even more focused and only have the land and sea options and really dial in the “I have a wolf or panther or whatever apex predator buddy” fantasy, and let a different subclass do falconry. Idk. But I’d be thrilled to trade FE for a hawk buddy that can give me advantage on attacks while dealing damage to the enemy, or a big bear buddy that uses more of my action economy to attack but uses its own economy to protect me and my allies, or a skirmishing predator buddy that works a lot like the primal companion beast of the land right now.

Then add the ability to cast “self” spells on the beast, and eventually share spells with it.

Maybe just tie all of this to Summon Beast or a handful of variants of it that you choose one and always have it prepared and can cast it a few times free, like with FE right now.

Like…that would do it. Make BM a subclass that takes that option and buffs it, and you’ve got an excellent balanced character that fights as a pit of hunters with their beast companion.

And for the tools folks, Knacks, and more spells that mimic cool ranger tool things.

For the “lower or more subtle magic” folks, give an option to do a couple simple but effective things fueled by spell slots. Anyone who can’t accept that spending a spell slot doesn’t mean you’re casting a spell, oh well.

Like it’s not even a total rewrite of the class.

 

[Minigiant]

I get that, and I’m usually all for more classes with specific focus over broader classes.

I just think that the Ranger can do what 90% of people want from it…but wotc just keeps doing weird nonsense instead of trying to actually do that

I keep saying it and people say I'm crazy.

But

1) WOTC just isn't willing to devote that much space to ranger. Ranger notoriously got the least amount of new content back in the day. Now it's suddenly gets its subclasses faster than everyone.

2) The OGL scandal and layoffs sucked up too much time off playtesting. Not that they had enough time to test as is. They jus A/B tested with 2014 and Tasha's vs One new idea. Then stopped as the deadline came.

3) Backwards compatibility forced them to utilize aspects they wish they could ditch or heavily alter. But the community DEMANDED everything that wasn't hot garbage to remain the same. You can tell that Crawford really wanted to change a lot of the base game and then change much of how underperforming classes worked. But doing so would break their compatibility to the old subclasses and to third-party content which the fanbase did not want.

And maybe the solution is for the BM to be even more focused and only have the land and sea options and really dial in the “I have a wolf or panther or whatever apex predator buddy” fantasy, and let a different subclass do falconry. Idk. But I’d be thrilled to trade FE for a hawk buddy that can give me advantage on attacks while dealing damage to the enemy, or a big bear buddy that uses more of my action economy to attack but uses its own economy to protect me and my allies, or a skirmishing predator buddy that works a lot like the primal companion beast of the land right now.

If I had to. That's what I'd do.

PHB:
Hunter - More Martial Focus
Houndmaster - Combat Wolf Flanker Pet focus
Falconer - Harasser Bird Pet and Archer Focus

Warden - Spell Based Melee Focus
Or
Horizon Walker - Portal and Teleportation Melee Focus

But that wouldn't be backwards compatible.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I keep saying it and people say I'm crazy.

But

1) WOTC just isn't willing to devote that much space to ranger. Ranger notoriously got the least amount of new content back in the day. Now it's suddenly gets its subclasses faster than everyone.

2) The OGL scandal and layoffs sucked up too much time off playtesting. Not that they had enough time to test as is. They jus A/B tested with 2014 and Tasha's vs One new idea. Then stopped as the deadline came.

3) Backwards compatibility forced them to utilize aspects they wish they could ditch or heavily alter. But the community DEMANDED everything that wasn't hot garbage to remain the same. You can tell that Crawford really wanted to change a lot of the base game and then change much of how underperforming classes worked. But doing so would break their compatibility to the old subclasses and to third-party content which the fanbase did not want.



If I had to. That's what I'd do.

PHB:
Hunter - More Martial Focus
Houndmaster - Combat Wolf Flanker Pet focus
Falconer - Harasser Bird Pet and Archer Focus

Warden - Spell Based Melee Focus
Or
Horizon Walker - Portal and Teleportation Melee Focus

But that wouldn't be backwards compatible.

Could be….im at work. Start a thread if you want and I’ll throw some ideas out when I’m free tomorrow.

I think that we could make Favored Enemy one of several options with the same weight as FE, and make different subclasses double down on those features. Like the favored spell idea that (IIRC) you had.