Core Classes: What and how many

[Minigiant]

I would like to see it this way...

Classes

• Basic Classes (No real class features)
  • Champion (Melee Divine caster)
  • Soldier/Dwarf (Armor/Attack warrior)
  • Adept/Elf (Melee Arcane caster)
  • Thief/Halfling (Locks/Traps based sneaky class)
  • Scout (Speed based Sneaky class)
  • Cleric (Generic Divine Caster)
  • Mage (Generic Arcane Caster)
  • Warrior (HP/Damage Warrior)
• Advanced Classes
  • Cleric (gets Turn Undead/Channel divinity, at-will Orisons)
    • Avenger (light armored rogue like cleric)
    • Druid (shape shifting)
    • Invoker (Wizard like Cleric)
    • Paladin (Lay on Hands, Smite, Divine Challenge...)
  • Fighter (Gets Stances, Opportunity attack whatever)
    • Barbarian (Rage)
    • Guardian (some defender like abilty)
    • Ranger (TWF and archery)
    • Warlord (Healing)
  • Rogue (gets sneak attack, initiative bonus, evasion)
    • Acrobat
    • Assassin
    • Bard
    • Thug (Fighter like rogue)
  • Wizard (gets cantrips and familar)
    • Conjurer
    • Illusionist
    • Sorceror/Evoker
    • Warlock/Enchanter

 

[TwinBahamut]

Let's see here...

My random list of hopes and dreams, with no Power Sources designated and using the 4E Monster Roles rather than the 4E Class Roles. Based on existing classes, with a few twists here and there.


Four Generic Classes: Each of these is designed to be simple-to-use and reasonably generic, with few extreme strengths and weaknesses but no complex mechanics.

Fighter: Can use any weapon or armor and has very high base characteristics, but few if any powers or maneuvers, and little ability to specialize. Brute Role.

Rogue: An agile warrior with high basic characteristics and good weapon choice, but poor armor. Lurker Role.

Wizard: Uses Vancian casting with access to a wide range of spells, so is flexible, but lacks metamagic and has no access to the best spells. Controller Role.

Cleric: A strong defensive warrior who uses holy magic to heal and support his fellows, with simple spell mechanics but considerable magic power. Soldier (Leader) Role.


Twelve Advanced Classes: Classes that have lower basic capability, but have more focused concepts and complex mechanics.

Warblade: A skilled, heavily armed warrior who uses advanced combat maneuvers and stances to control the tide of battle, but lacks the raw power and survivability of the Fighter. Soldier or Controller Role.

Ranger: An agile master of weapons who can use a great variety of special techniques to wear away at his foes and take advantage of the terrain. Skirmisher or Artillery Role.

Lord: A skilled commander of the field who inspires others. Coordinates allies and fights alongside them. Brute (Leader) Role.

Cavalier: A master of mounted combat who switches easily between harassing from their flank or bravely holding his ground. Must carefully pay attention to the strengths and weaknesses of his mount. Skirmisher or Soldier Role.

Berserker: A terrifying destroyer who must carefully manage the supernatural rage that drives him on. Lacks skill in weapons and armor, but makes up for it with incredible power. Brute or Soldier Role.

Druid: A mystic sage who has mastered the art of transforming into wild creatures and controlling the powers of the earth. Balancing magic use with different forms can be tricky. Lurker or Controller Role.

Sorcerer: A living conduit of raw magic energy, who mastered the skills of magical combat. Is skilled at using metamagic to augment his powerful elemental skills. Artillery or Controller Role.

Bard: A talented singer of magical and sacred songs that bestow powerful effects on allies or weaken enemies. Controller (Leader) Role.

Ninja: A master of secret magical arts and a deadly assassin. Uses powerful magic of illusion and darkness in combination with special combat techniques. Lurker or Skirmisher Role.

Monk: Devout priest of a highly disciplined order. Master of both advanced martial arts and potent magic used to protect allies and seal evil. Skirmisher (Leader) Role.

Paladin: Holy knights who stand on the front lines of the battle against evil. Can both protect allies with a sacred shield or support them from the back lines with arrows of light. Soldier or Artillery Role.

Necromancer: Shadowy priests of death and darkness. Often feared as masters of the undead, but many instead serve as diviners who see the future by calling upon the wisdom of the dead. Lurker (Leader) Role.


Four Racial Classes: Classes that build upon a race's natural characteristics. Often fairly simple, mechanically, with a few twists.

Eladrin (Elf): Knights who protect the faerie world with swords and spells. Skilled at teleportation. Soldier or Skirmisher Role.

Dwarf Hero (Dwarf): Proud warriors who bravely explore the deepest parts of the world. Their rock-like bodies let them wade into battle without fear, and their keen instincts let them skillfully evade traps and attack with great precision. Brute or Lurker Role.

Werebeast (Human): Humans who, through a magical curse or blood heritage, can take on a powerful beast form. Brute or Skirmisher Role.

Dragon Sage (Dragonborn): Dragonborn who undergo mystical training in order to awaken the true might of their draconic heritage, and slowly unlock all the power of a true dragon. Brute or Controller Role.

 

[WheresMyD20]

I'd like to see 8-12 classes available at launch, however, I only think 4 of them (cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard) should be "core". The other 4-8 should be contained in the optional rules.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I think it ought to be broken down by power source:

• Martial: Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, Warlord
• Arcane: Bard, Swordmage, Wizard, Sorcerer
• Divine: Cleric, Paladin, Avenger, Invoker
• Primal: Druid, Ranger, Shaman, Warden

Sixteen. Four power sources with four classes in each.

 

[Falling Icicle]

They obviously need to have Fighters, Rogues, Clerics and Wizards, as those have been the four "basic" classes since the beginning.

I'd also like to see Barbarians, Bards, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, Sorcerers and Warlocks in the core. I'd even like to see Assassins, so long as they're not forced to be evil.

 

[Jack Daniel]

STR: Fighter

DEX: Rogue

CON: Monk

INT: Wizard

WIS: Cleric

CHA: Bard

Put sub-classes in the first expansion module for building more complex characters. Assassin (rogue sub-class), druid (cleric sub-class), warlord (bard sub-class), and all the many sundry warrior classes (paladin, ranger, and barbarian) and specialist mages (sorcerer and warlock as well as school specialists) can be added after the core rules come out. Ditto for psionicists.

 

[Lanefan]

With Feat Selection or simply Role-Playing I think the Knight / Cavalier can easily be emulated by Fighter without the need for a seperate class.

Perhaps. I just want to see the archetype supported out of the box rather than have to be built from parts.

As for the Battle Priest, I think Cleric already is this.

Only to a point, at least in the older editions which is where I'm coming from here.

Vampire is a Core 4E class (of course, everything is Core in 4E)

Must be in a later book, then; I only have round 1 of the 4e releases.

That said, I can see it now: a player brings a Vampire into a party that already has an established Cleric. Cleric's response: "I've spent most of my adult life training myself on how to kill these things and now you expect me to run with one?!?" Shortly after that the party is down either one Cleric or one Vampire...

Lan-"I'm cheering for the Cleric"-efan

 

[Lanefan]

First off, those of you advocating for a "Witch" class be warned: Witches in the real world aren't likely to be too happy with the idea. That said, every idea I've seen for a Witch class could probably slide in under Druid or Nature Cleric pretty easily.

A few things leap out from the list by [MENTION=63508]Minigiant[/MENTION]:

Basic Classes (No real class features)

Champion (Melee Divine caster)

Otherwise known as the War Cleric. Congratulations - you're the first person other than myself who's suggested such a thing. That said, their spells should be nowhere near as good/useful as a regular Cleric except for battle spells.

[*]Adept/Elf (Melee Arcane caster)

As long as it doesn't get the ability to cast while in melee, as this is something that simply should not exist (one of my rare nods to balance, this).

Advanced Classes
[...]

I'm not sold on your advanced list, sorry to say; but I do wonder where Necromancer fits in. I'd replace Conjurer with it.

Lanefan

 

[Minigiant]

Otherwise known as the War Cleric. Congratulations - you're the first person other than myself who's suggested such a thing. That said, their spells should be nowhere near as good/useful as a regular Cleric except for battle spells.

Yes, basically the style of the Paladin's list. Raw HP heal, combat buffs, condition removal, and protections. That's it

As long as it doesn't get the ability to cast while in melee, as this is something that simply should not exist (one of my rare nods to balance, this).

Not casting in melee without penalty. The Adept/Elf can point blank blast spell at the usual penalty (opp. attack) but has the spells to resist being in the blast area.

I'm not sold on your advanced list, sorry to say; but I do wonder where Necromancer fits in. I'd replace Conjurer with it.

Lanefan

I left the Necromancer out for the Core/1st bbook. Ideally, their would be a wizard subclass for each school plus sorceror, warlock, and swordmage

Elemental Blasts, Charms, Illusions, and Summoning are more iconic for heroic wizards than Necromancy. There should be necromancy spells but the subclass can wait.

 

[steeldragons]

-snip good points n' stuff-

Let's get creative though. Let's get out of the 4 class model of thinking (+ brain wars!) and really suggest some outside of the box classes. For instance:

Merchant (trader, seller, advertiser, import/export, etc.)
Entertainer (here's our bard, musician, showman, storyteller, politician)
Educator (These specialize in another class, but don't perform it much)
-snip other creative/fun[ny] ideas-

"I throw my +3 eraser! Make a reflex save or by blinded and coughing/choking from the resulting ball of chalk dust for d4 rounds! Then I whip out my silver-edged ruler and move in invoking my 'Advanced Knuckle Smack' feat!"

Here's the problem though, are these really the classes and adventures you want to go on? Is your game all about getting that rug for sir John just perfect by the deadline he's given you so you get collect your fee and pay your taxes?

Yes. It does not quite say "Heroic adventure/exploration of excitement for fame and fortune."

I'm reminded of a cartoon from the 1e DMG which a bunch of adventurers around the gaming table explaining to a comrade that they are playing "Taxes & Townhomes" or "People & Professions" or something like that. hahaha.

First off, those of you advocating for a "Witch" class be warned: Witches in the real world aren't likely to be too happy with the idea. That said, every idea I've seen for a Witch class could probably slide in under Druid or Nature Cleric pretty easily.

Well, I get your point, but since the GAME is referencing fictional/literary archetypes, like it does (or should do) for all of the other classes....not seeking to simulate real world neo-paganism, I think we'd be ok. You don't here all of the real world Paladins and Bards making a big stink, now do you?

Personally, my own game world's "Shaman" class would actually serve to make a decent "Witch", given I worked out all kinds of "spirit world" and "Hex" powers for them and fits the anthropological "witch" archetype. But the idea that it would be a "Divine" sub-class as opposed to an "Arcane" one might throw people off/stunt imagination.The "Thaumaturge", also, could be easily fluffed/flavoured as a "Witch" character, I suppose.

So I could totally see altering my list to incorporate a "Witch" MU sub-class, instead of "Specialist Mages"...for a core/basic set. If for no other reason than page count, since to introduce Specialists, you're looking at detailing 8 (I would probably start with 4) different specialties and their individual powers. They could definitely be held off for a "Complete Mage" expansion book...which could/might also introduce some form of everyone's so-beloved "Warlock" and/or "Sorcerer" (though gods I hate that distinction/rift of Sorcerer v. Wizard")

With that in mind, the revised list would look something like this..."D&D: Masters & Casters", if you would:

"Priests" (Divine Casters)
--Cleric: Divine-base spells/powers, all armor, limited weapons
--Druid: Nature-base spells/powers, limtied armor, limited weapons
--Shaman: "Primal"/Spirit-base spells/powers, limited armor, limited weapons

"Warriors" (Martial Masters)
--Barbarian: "Primal"-base skills/powers, limited armor, all weapons
--Fighter: "Martial"/Combat-base skills/powers, all armor, all weapons
--Paladin: Divine-base skills/powers (no spell use!), all armor, all weapons
--Ranger: Nature-base skills/powers (no spell use!), limited armor, all weapons

"Mages" (Arcane caster)
--Thaumaturge: Divine-flavored ritual caster, Divine & Arcane spell list/powers, no armor, limited weapons
--Witch: "Primal" (or Natural if you prefer/might be better to emphasize the difference from the Shaman?)-flavored caster, potion maker, Spirit (or Nature) & Arcane spell list/powers, no armor, limited weapons.
--Wizard: Arcane caster, full access to all Arcane skills/powers, no armor, limited weapons.

"Rogues" (Skill Masters)
--"Avenger" (borrowing the name for lack of a better one since many people seem to really want "Assassins", but I think the name carries too much "evil"weight. So for lack of a better title, at the moment, we'll go with "Avenger" so that you can effectively be an "Assaassin" or Batman-esque vigilante of any alignment): Martial/Combat-based skills/powers, Thieves Abilities, limited armor, all weapons
--Bard: Nature-based skills/powers, magic effected through their music, access to some Divine, some Nature and some Arcane (Illusion) effects, some Thieve's Abilities, limited armor, limited weapons
--Thief: Martial/Combat-base skills/powers (Sneak attacks, AoO, and the like), Thieves Abilities, limited armor, limited (no two-handed, except bows) weapons

Soooo, the "power/base" breakdown is...
Arcane: Thaumaturges, Witches, Wizards (mixed: Shamans, Bards)
Divine: Clerics, Paladins (mixed: Thaumaturges, Bards)
Martial: Avengers, Fighters, Thieves (mixed: Paladins, Rangers, Barbarians)
Nature: Druids, Rangers, Bards (mixed: possibly Witches)
Primal/Spirit: Barbarians, Shamans (mixed: possibly Witches)

Casters: Bards, Clerics, Druids, Shamans, Thaumaturges, Witches, Wizards
Non-casters: Avengers, Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, Thieves

An even...13?...if anything, as much as I like the idea of a Divine-flavored arcane caster, I suppose the weakest "archetype" here is Thaumaturge. So I could take that out to make a nice round "12 base classes" which seems to be consensus for a golden number...

OR, add in another Warrior class, "Knight/Cavalier" as Lanefan suggests/wants, to round up to 14, 7 casters, 7 non-casters, and even it out that way.

Off the top of my head, I'd say it would look something like this:
"Cavalier/Knight" OO! How about "Crusader" instead?: Martial/Combat base skills/powers, specific/additional "mounted" skills/powers, all armor (focus on heavy), limited weapons (range of options limited to focus on those used from horseback and for face-to-face dualing. Use of a daggers or bows, for example, would be seen as a "coward's weapon")

A few things leap out from the list by @Minigiant :
Otherwise known as the War Cleric. Congratulations - you're the first person other than myself who's suggested such a thing. That said, their spells should be nowhere near as good/useful as a regular Cleric except for battle spells.
As long as it doesn't get the ability to cast while in melee, as this is something that simply should not exist (one of my rare nods to balance, this).'

See, I really don't see this as a strong enough archetype in and of itself to warrant a separate class...any Cleric of a "battle/war" deitywould have this kind of "increased combat spell range/effectiveness, limited healing spells/effectiveness". One could make the argument to extend it to deities of things like Storms or the Sun or what have you, as long as the religion/deity is fluffed to be battle-focused.

I'm not sold on your advanced list, sorry to say; but I do wonder where Necromancer fits in. I'd replace Conjurer with it.

Lanefan

It's all in the Complete Mages Compendium, due out on the second Tuesday of Not Yet...since this is all speculation on our part . But the more I think about it, the more "specialist mages" don't need to be presented as "beginner/opening set" classes.

--SD