Cost for an item of permanent enlarge?

[Spatzimaus]

I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but once a question is asked, a thorough answer is not out of line, even if the person asking the question is a net guru on the subject.

I started writing the post before either you or Souljourner posted your responses, then went to lunch. It wasn't intended as a rebuke of either of you, it was an attempt to keep the thread from being derailed in the usual "the price is whatever the DM says it is!" debate, by pointing out that the person who started the thread is experienced enough to have heard that debate before (after all, it seems to come up every day or two on this board).
So, I wanted to mention the guideline thing in passing, and move on to the meat of the question, which IMO was how Enlarge Person is one of the spells that's clearly too good for a cheap item. Then again, there's really not much to say about that.

 

[Nail]

As a house rule aside (with the required nod to "the price formulas are only guidelines"):

I require spells that power "continuous" magic items to have a spell duration of 1 hr/level. That often takes care of these strange uber-powerful 1st level spells. An Enlarge Person -type spell that lasts 1 hour per level is at least a 3rd level spell, right? (If not 4th.....)

Therefore the price would be: 2000gp * 5th C.L. * 3rd Spl Lvl = 30,000 gp.

A simple and effective fix.

 

[Dthamilaye]

Bit OT, but:

IMC, a half-dragon wanted to go from medium to large. Permanently.

I consulted the ritual chapter in Savage Species and came to following conclusion (IIRC):

2300 xp, and around 67000 gp, including the caster payment + the ritual stuff.
That gave him the exact benefits of the Enlarge spell. (plus wings from half-dragon and better damage dice for natural attacks).

I gave him this without raising his LA. I gave an option that if he wants to become large by stats too (Ie, Monster manual medium->large stat difference), he would have to raise his LA by 1 too. Ie, he would lose his next level. He can do the 'secondary' ritual later on, and that will cost him bit more xp and money (In addition to 1 level), and it will only give the difference between the Enlarge spell bonuses and the 'Real' medium-to-large bonuses.

 

[Darklone]

I don't like these MM stat differences between medium and large... too much. Strangely they only use half of these values for many monsters. That looks much more appropriate... if I look at halflings and gnomes as PCs...

 

[PugioilAudacio]

Well, something similar to this occured in our campaign. Our dwarven fighter/barbarian wanted to get larger, so he had an item made that casts enlarge person. However, as he made it a caster level 1 item, it only lasts for 6 rounds. Every 6 rounds he needs to activate it again to stay large. Our DM allowed him to do this using the base forumulas - I think the item was 1,800. I posted this on the wizards forums and it was generally agreed that this wasn't that overpowered - as he had to re-activate it every minute.

Desperate to permanently increase his size, he created a prestige class that would eventually enlarge him. Here's the link:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=160901

 

[Lamoni]

I see that enlarge person would be too good for 2,000 gp... but what about a reduce person item? It would be awful to give to melee fighters, but it would be nice for a sorcerer. It would give a +2 AC (1 from size, 1 from dex), +5 to hide, +1 reflex saving throw at a cost of only having worse strength which would reduce carrying capacity and any weapon damage... both of which are not very big drawbacks for a sorcerer. Would you still charge more than 4,000?

 

[Nail]

I see that enlarge person would be too good for 2,000 gp... but what about a reduce person item? It would be awful to give to melee fighters, but it would be nice for a sorcerer. It would give a +2 AC (1 from size, 1 from dex), +5 to hide, +1 reflex saving throw at a cost of only having worse strength which would reduce carrying capacity and any weapon damage... both of which are not very big drawbacks for a sorcerer. Would you still charge more than 4,000?

Yep. For the same reasons.

Look, the bottom line is: spells that have short durations are not well balanced as continuous magic items.

 

[Scion]

Like the new animal buffs. +4 enhancement to a stat is so very broken.

wait, that was a little too sarcastic

While it is hard to price such an item properly there are a lot of things to take into account with this one. It seems that people put vastly different values to the various abilities (to the point of one poster saying that the drawbacks were minimal, which I dont agree with at all).

Is it worth 4k? no problem there, is it worth 8k? 10k? 50k? very hard to say. I would say that it isnt anywhere near as good as the monks belt, which puts it at or under 13k for me. Most characters, most of the time would rather have a +4 str enhancement than this item as well, remember that specific bonuses are generally worth much less (like an item that only gives you bonuses to a single save, or vs a single tactic).

Still, somewhere between 8k and 12k would be fine to me. The 8k is minimum is to keep those who think reach is the end all, be all ability from having a coronary, and the 12k is to keep it less than the monks belt.

 

[LazarusLong42]

Like the new animal buffs. +4 enhancement to a stat is so very broken.

wait, that was a little too sarcastic

Actually, I disagree (with it being too sarcastic). If we go by the spell "cost" rather than ability "cost", we get 2 x 3 x 2000 x 2 (duration) = 24,000 gp for a permanent +4 enhancement item. Which means the designers actually thought a belt of Strength +4 was worth slightly less than a spell-based item would have cost.

But the problem with pricing an item of permanent enlargement is the odd assortment of things that come with it. You get +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 AC (not including the -1 from Dex), -1 to hit (not including the +1 from Str), higher damage (generally 1 pt from size, not including the +1 from Str) and reach. And you get bonuses against grapple/trip/disarm/etc., but I dare say that last is a minor benefit.

(Note in all the benefits and drawbacks above I've removed the effect of the Dex decrease and Str increase, since we're comparing to a plain ol' +2 belt of Str).

So, analysis: to counteract the basic drawbacks (ignoring, for a moment, the social drawbacks), you need a +1 weapon, gloves of Dex +2 and a ring of protection +1 -- i.e. 7000 gp.

Is five bonus feet of reach and +2 damage worth 7000 gp? The former would be for a chain-slinger with Combat Reflexes, or a trip-monkey, but not so much for a sword-and-boarder. The latter, probably not so much--it's worth about the same as a +1 weapon, i.e. +1 to hit and damage.

I'd price the item at 6000, but make it only available as a ring--there is no body slot affinity for "size." If put onto another body slot, it'd be 9000.

 

[Scion]

transformation? (cloak, cape, mantle)
multiple effects? (robe)
physical improvement? (shirt, belt)

those seem to at least work partially.

I know what you mean though about the cost being off no matter how you look at it though. The penalties it gives are major.

Of course currently I am useing the 3.5 animal buffs as 1st level spells and the real animal buffs as 2nd level spells..lol.. so the math in my head was a little off