Coup de grace useless beyond Heroric Tier?

[Saeviomagy]

On a general note about CDGs needing to be the killing blow:

Realistically that was never the case. I've seen multiple accounts of executions by axe or sword where the executee took repeated blows before they died (I think one got as far as 11).

And that's on normal people.

Just to point out. A few CDGs from Baphomet would mess pretty much anyone up something fierce (I think its like 8d12 + 46 on a crit).

Maybe that's the answer to your problem markn. Just treat all enemy attacks as though they are vicious (and maybe even 1 extra d12 on a crit). This would scale perfectly with your current complaint.

It would also have the nice feature of increasing crit damage on monsters. Which is something else I think becomes lacking in most cases at higher levels.

I'd agree that monster crits need to be made more than just max damage. I'd probably stick with working out what their gear level is supposed to be and give them normal magic weapon crit bonus damage based on that.

 

[Garthanos]

Oooooh Nooooo the monsters can't easily "one shot" eviscerate a downed "Heroic Paragon" ummmm huh? I am missing something... most of the time being down just means somebody needs to slap there face with a wet towel and say dammit you are a hero stand up and fight and most of the time they do....

 

[Garthanos]

Realistically that was never the case. I've seen multiple accounts of executions by axe or sword where the executee took repeated blows before they died (I think one got as far as 11).

And that's on normal people.

That is the kind of anecdote I like heheh... knock people off there assumptions..

Passionless slit the throat cold and merciless precision killing is actually rather hard for most real people... I suspect the executioners you mention were suffering.
Note : Adrenaline rush resulting in wild but powerful attacks are more typical than cold blooded deadliness.

 

[Saeviomagy]

That is the kind of anecdote I like heheh... knock people off there assumptions..

Passionless slit the throat cold and merciless precision killing is actually rather hard for most real people... I suspect the executioners you mention were suffering.
Note : Adrenaline rush resulting in wild but powerful attacks are more typical than cold blooded deadliness.

No, these were professional, expert executioners who wanted their... clients(?) to get a quick death for the sake of mercy. The upshot of one of these stories was the creation of the guillotine, because beheading by axe or sword was "ineffective".

 

[Garthanos]

No, these were professional, expert executioners who wanted their... clients(?) to get a quick death for the sake of mercy. The upshot of one of these stories was the creation of the guillotine, because beheading by axe or sword was "ineffective".

Well true... that innefectuality however sets a baseline - ie if killing under a less passionate circumstance is hard. the fact that most individuals in a conflict will find it even harder to pull off creates a compound result.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well true... that innefectuality however sets a baseline - ie if killing under a less passionate circumstance is hard. the fact that most individuals in a conflict will find it even harder to pull off creates a compound result.

Here's a thought - even if "normal" attempts at beheading or throat-cutting are nasty, they are probably also very often deadly.

How about a rule that says that after a coup de grace, a character takes ongoing damage 5 (save ends). Now that's nasty and probably deadly... (And if you really need to, increase the ongoing damage by tier...)

 

[KarinsDad]

No, these were professional, expert executioners who wanted their... clients(?) to get a quick death for the sake of mercy. The upshot of one of these stories was the creation of the guillotine, because beheading by axe or sword was "ineffective".

While this is true, it is a bit irrelevent. The vast majority of those people were probably still dead after the first swing in most cases, they just hadn't died yet. A killing blow was delivered and they would have bleed to death, their head just was not severed and they were still bleeding. Most of them would probably have not been able to get back up and fight. The goal of killing them was accomplished, the goal of beheading them was not.

And that is what we are talking about with CDG in the game system. Unless a PC or NPC goes unconscious, they are still capable of getting back up and fighting and shy of further wounds, will survive.

It is unlikely that this is true for most of the victims in your anecdote.

 

[Artoomis]

While this is true, it is a bit irrelevent. The vast majority of those people were probably still dead after the first swing in most cases, they just hadn't died yet. A killing blow was delivered and they would have bleed to death, their head just was not severed and they were still bleeding. Most of them would probably have not been able to get back up and fight. The goal of killing them was accomplished, the goal of beheading them was not.

And that is what we are talking about with CDG in the game system. Unless a PC or NPC goes unconscious, they are still capable of getting back up and fighting and shy of further wounds, will survive.

It is unlikely that this is true for most of the victims in your anecdote.

This is a bit macabre, but exection by beheading with sword or axe were a chacny affair. Perhps the worst one that happened at the Tower of London was:

The most badly botched execution was that of James, Duke of Monmouth, in 1685. Monmouth, the illegitimate son of Charles II, had led an unsuccessful rebellion against his uncle, King James II. His executioner was the hangman, Jack Ketch, a notorious bungler with an axe. On climbing the scaffold, Monmouth picked up the axe and ran his fingers along the blade, asking Ketch if he thought it was sharp enough for the job. He handed Ketch six guineas, promising him six more if he did a clean job: "Pray do not serve me as you did my Lord Russell. I have heard you struck him four or five times; If you strike me twice, I cannot promise you not to stir."

Ketch had an attack of nerves and his first blow only grazed the back of the duke's head. Monmouth, who had refused the blindfold, turned his head around and gazed directly at Ketch, further unnerving him. When two more blows failed to sever the head, Ketch threw the axe down and offered 40 guineas to anyone in the crowd who could do better. At this the Sheriff of Middlesex, who was in charge of the execution, threatened to have him killed if he did not finish his job. When two more blows failed, Ketch had to use his knife, butchering the Duke like a pig.

also, FWIW:

The beheading device known as the guillotine was invented by Dr. Joseph Ignace Guillotin, a gentle French physician and one of the founders of Freemasonry in France. Appalled at the bungling executions he had seen, including slow hanging and beheading with dull axe blades, he decided to devise a swift and painless method of execution.

 

[Trevelyan]

It pretty much only needs to be considered from the monsters point of view. Monsters die at 0HP so very few abilities that PCs have will let them CDG.

Well, there is the ever popular Sleep spell, and the equally enticing rogue's Knockout exploit for a start. Moreover a DM might rule that a given monster or NPC is helpless under any number of other situations.

The CDG rules aren't necessarily intended to work specifically for monsters who want to kill PCs at 0 hit points so much as provide generic rules for situations where one individual is able to take full advantage of the opportunity to attack another individual. Attacking an unconscious PC is one such case, but hardly the only example.

 

[Markn]

Well, there is the ever popular Sleep spell, and the equally enticing rogue's Knockout exploit for a start. Moreover a DM might rule that a given monster or NPC is helpless under any number of other situations.

The CDG rules aren't necessarily intended to work specifically for monsters who want to kill PCs at 0 hit points so much as provide generic rules for situations where one individual is able to take full advantage of the opportunity to attack another individual. Attacking an unconscious PC is one such case, but hardly the only example.

Fair enough point. Still, the PCs ability to make monsters helpless is few and far between (DM's whim not withstanding). Frankly, if the PCs manage to make a monster helpless, have fun - the monster dies. I'm perfectly ok with that. But now you have the issue of whether that power is balanced with other powers at its level. Myabe it is and maybe its not. That's a debate for another day.

See, it comes down to roleplaying and the rules supporting the roleplaying. Take this scene for example:

Monster has a downed PC and threatens to kill him if the PC's don't surrender. PC's can surrender and the game continues on (a DM could TPK in this situation but there is no point to that unless you want the campaign to end). Or, the PCs could try to be heroes, save the downed PC but risk his life in the process.

Now using CDG rules as you get higher levels it plays more like this:

Monster - "Surrender or your friend dies!"

PC - "You shall not win, you will die filthy cur!"

Monster - "Then your friend dies....THWACK....uh...wait for it..."

PC's attack the monster

Monster - "No wait, he will die, just give me another chop or two. You'll see!"

PC's kill monster, downed PC gets up.

Downed PC - "Thanks guys, I knew you could save me!" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)


Sure we can all roleplay that there is a risk of death but its contrived. Rules that support the circumstances and are seamless are best. In fact, this is why some people can't stand 4e - the rules don't support the roleplaying. BTW, I love 4e, but parts could use an improvement.



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