Creature Catalogue Overhaul Project Revisited

[Cleon]

This is pretty good! I have just a few thoughts. For one, it feels like Ex and Su would make more sense than Sp. Like you, I find the rate of ship sinking to be a bit odd, though maybe they're thinking of ship length as related to inertia or something. This is where picking naval combat rules would be helpful (there are 3rd party supplements for that), since I feel like some kind of check would make sense. Is there anything else in standard ship statistics we could use?

I was going to make it (Ex and Su) or just (Su) but started having cold feet because dispel magic normally only affects (Sp) powers.

I'm fine changing it to (Ex and Su), and while I'm at it I'll correct a slight grammatical clumsiness - the "or successful attack by spells" should be "attacks".

There are more elaborate ship rules in official 3E supplements such as Stormwrack, which give ships a "Seaworthiness" rating and a volume in "Hull sections" that'd be pertinent if I wanted to write up a version of the whirlpool ability that used those rules, but I'd rather stick to the SRD as much as possible.

 

[Cleon]

I'm fine changing it to (Ex and Su), and while I'm at it I'll correct a slight grammatical clumsiness - the "or successful attack by spells" should be "attacks".

Updated the Afanc Working Draft.

I'm wondering whether there should be some hit point amount in that rule, since as written two damage from a single arrow or magic missile might be enough to dissuade the afanc.

How about "or successful attacks by spells or missile weapons (inflicting ##% of the afanc's hit points in damage while it is circling forces it to stop whirlpooling)."

We just need to decide on a percentage for the "##", my initial idea was 50% (93 hp) but that seemed way too many, so 25% (46 hp), 20% (37 hp) or even 10% (18 hp) seem more suitable.

It's circling AC is between 24 and 34 remember so it'll be very hard to hit with arrows.

Hmm… actually that seems a bit high high. The original monster was AC 6 (and AC 14 in the 3.0 version) so I think we rather overcompensated by giving it a base of AC 22.

I'm tempted to reduce that to base AC 16 (+10 natural). It's what the Rhinoceros and Cachalot Whale have, which seem appropriate comparisons as tough-skinned natural beast. That'd but the "maximum whirlpool AC" at AC 28, which is difficult but achievable by a midlevel archer (i.e. a typical 7th level fighter with a few pluses to hit can easily have +10 attack or more).

Hmm… let's run some numbers.

We're aiming to make this thing roughly CR 9 or 10 aren't we? A 10th level warrior-type will have about +12 to +15 attack with a missile weapon depending on how specialized they are. The 10th-level sample Barbarian NPCs in the DMG has:

Barbarian: +1 composite longbow [+4 Str bonus] +13/+8 (1d8+5/×3)

So if we use the lower AC of 16 then over the six rounds of whirlpool formation the afanc goes from AC 18 to 28, meaning our Barbarian needs to roll
5/7/9/11/13/15 for the first iterative arrow and 10/12/14/16/18/20 for the second, so on average he'd hit with… 5.1 arrows. He averages 9.5 damage an arrow, so that's 48.45 damage without even allowing for critical hits.

And remember that's just one party member, presumably the others will be contributing as well!

With the current AC 22 our guy needs to hit AC 24 to 34, for rolls of 11/13/15/17/19/21 for the first arrow and 16/18/20/22/24/26. That's 2.15 arrows, on average 0.1075 of those are criticals so the average arrow damage is 22.4675 hit points.

Hmm… on the other hand I think the afanc will mostly likely be encountered as an single overstrong encounter by a party of around 7th or 8th level.

Have to think about this…

 

[Cleon]

Upon reflection, the "Barbarian" calculations might be exaggerated since many of the attackers won't have mighty composite bows. An ordinary bow or crossbow will do roughly half the Barbarian's 1d8+4 arrow damage and might not even have iterative attacks.

How about we compromise and make the base AC 18, the halfway point between the 3.0 Catalogue version's 14 and the current 22?

Currently I favour 25% for the ## in "inflicting ##% of the afanc's hit points".

I'm also thinking we could lower the deep cover cap from +12 to AC and +6 to Reflex saves to +8/+4 to match the bonuses from improved cover. I only used +12 in the Rough Draft since that's what the 2E AD&D version employed. We can also use the improved cover rule "A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies":

For every round the afanc spends circling it gains a +2 bonus to AC and a +1 bonus on Reflex saves against creatures above the waterline due to its increasingly deep cover of water, culminating in improved cover after four rounds (+8 to AC, +8 to Reflex saves, effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies).​

That way an 8th level party have some chance of stopping a circling afanc from whirlpooling with missile weapons but can't trivially knock it out of circling with an area-of-effect lightning bolt.

 

[freyar]

In the end, I like what you have there, including base AC 18.

I'm still not terribly fond of using the ship's length to determine sinking time. What do you feel about the ship's captain making some kind of check or save to keep afloat? Otherwise, this ability is probably ready to go.

 

[Cleon]

In the end, I like what you have there, including base AC 18.

Updated the Afanc Working Draft.

Updating the Whirlpool Working Draft.

In the end, I like what you have there, including base AC 18.

I'm still not terribly fond of using the ship's length to determine sinking time. What do you feel about the ship's captain making some kind of check or save to keep afloat? Otherwise, this ability is probably ready to go.

Yes, it is a bit odd. Logically one would think it'd depend on the ship's draft and seaworthiness. A long shallow-hulled "island hopping" war canoe should be easier to sink than a short, deep-hulled sea-going cog.

That's hard to do using just the SRD, since it doesn't include Stormwrack's ship rules.

That said, one would like a certain amount of randomness in the sinking times too. Maybe just list some random dice rolls for different classes of ship?

I would have no objection to the captain & crew being able to make round-by-round Profession (sailor) checks to keep the ship above water. Preferably cumulative "DC increases by 1 per round" ones so the ship would eventually sink even if those aboard have epic level sailing skills.

Here's a Rough Proposal:

The whirlpool is 80 feet wide at the top, 5 feet wide at the base, and 10 to 20 feet deep. The ship at the center of the whirlpool will be dragged underwater after being in the vortex for the duration listed in the Afanc Whirlpool Ship-Sinking Table below. The captain of a properly crewed ship can make Profession (sailor) checks to delay the sinking of their vessel (DC 15 for the first round, +1 per additional round).

Afanc Whirlpool Ship-Sinking Table

Ship Size* (typical length)​	Example Ship Type​	Sinking Time​
Colossal (80 ft. or longer)	Galley, Sailing Ship, Warship	None (Too large to sink.)
Gargantuan (40 ft. to 80 ft. long)	Longship*	1d4+4 rounds
Huge (20 ft. to 40 ft. long)	Keelboat*	1d3+2 rounds
Large (10 ft. to 20 ft. long)	Yacht**	1d2+1 rounds
Medium or smaller (10 ft. or less)	Rowboat	1 round

*If your campaign employs the Ship rules in Stormwrack use the vehicle sizes in that book. The above table assumes the vessel is seaworthy and has a deep enough draft to resist being easily swamped (typically 15 ft. for a Colossal ship, 10 ft. for Gargantuan, 5 ft. for Huge, 2½ ft. for Large and 1 ft. for Medium). If the ship's draft is less than this (such as a Keelboat or Longship) the Whirlpool Ship-Sinking table treats it as one size category smaller than its actual size. The ship may also be treated as one size category smaller even if its draft is deep enough if it is unseaworthy (Seaworthiness –2 or lower in Stormwrack) or badly damaged. Contrariwise, a very seaworthy vessel (Seaworthiness +2 or higher in Stormwrack) will not have a size category penalty if its draft is too shallow and may even be treated as a size category larger than it actually is (although this cannot move it into the "Unsinkable" Colossal Ship category). If a ship is extraordinarily badly built or so rotten/damaged/wormholed it can barely float give it a two size category penalty on the Ship-Sinking table.

I think that looks OK.

 

[freyar]

Yes, I like this! Am I right in assuming that the ** on the Yacht is just supposed to be a single *? I also wouldn't mind putting a sentence in the footnote that a DM can substitute other ship rules if desired. So shall we say that the whirlpool is done?

Answering one question mark in the working draft, I definitely think we should give it a capsize/ram type attack based on the original monsters. I know we have a capsize ability somewhere, probably in WotC products too. Do you remember where we can find that?

 

[Cleon]

Yes, I like this! Am I right in assuming that the ** on the Yacht is just supposed to be a single *?

No.

The ** is because Yacht is a ship type of my own invention that isn't in the SRD. I needed something to fill the empty gap in the Large Vessel category and I couldn't decide whether to create a new type or use on of the Large Vehicles from Stormwrack.

Upon reflection, since we're referring to Stormwrack rules we might as well use a vessels from those rules - the Dugout appears to be the only option, .

I meant to put a ** explanatory note there but forgot.

I also wouldn't mind putting a sentence in the footnote that a DM can substitute other ship rules if desired. So shall we say that the whirlpool is done?

It seems simpler to just change the first line to "Campaigns that use the Stormwrack book or another nautical system may use that source's vehicle sizes and ship-sinking rules instead."

Updating the Whirlpool Working Draft.

Answering one question mark in the working draft, I definitely think we should give it a capsize/ram type attack based on the original monsters. I know we have a capsize ability somewhere, probably in WotC products too. Do you remember where we can find that?

Yes.

 

[Cleon]

Yes.

Okay, maybe that wasn't quite the most informative answer I could have given.

The official rule's Capsize attack appears in the Dragon Turtle, but I don't care for it much:

Capsize (Ex): A submerged dragon turtle that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 20 feet long capsizes the vessel 95% of the time. It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessel from 20 to 60 feet long and a 20% chance to capsize one over 60 feet long.

I would prefer some variation of the Chont's Ramming attack:

Ramming (Ex): As a standard action, a chont can swim at up to quadruple speed (200 feet) and ram a waterborne target (such as a ship or another creature). To ram, the chont must end its movement in the target's space. This attack deals 2d8+5 points of damage. If the target is a creature, it can attempt either an attack of opportunity or a DC 18 Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

Upon ramming a ship, the chont can make a Strength check to breach its hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. (See Equipment in the SRD for information about ships). Regardless of the check result, every creature aboard must attempt a DC 15 Reflex saving throw. Success means the creature takes 1d6 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact; failure means the creature is hurled overboard.

I happen to already have a Homebrew rule for this very occasion:

Capsizing Ram (Ex): As a full-round action, a submerged ??? can attempt to sink a boat or ship. The ??? can move up to its normal swim speed (#0 feet) and surface under a vessel in an attempt to hoist it upwards until it keels over, or it can swim at up to quadruple speed (##0 feet) and ram the target vessel with the same intent, the impact inflicts #d#+# points of damage to the rammed vessel but also does #d#+# damage to the ??? itself. In either case, the ??? must end its movement in the target's space. The ??? takes no impact damage if it rams a creature, and the target creature can attempt either an attack of opportunity or a DC ## Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

If it surfaces below a vessel, the ??? must make a Strength check to capsize it with a +## size bonus (total modifier +## for a typical ???). The capsize DC varies with the type of vessel, as follows: rowboat DC 16, keelboat DC 30, sailing ship or longship DC 38, warship DC 42, or galley DC 45. If the Strength check fails with a result 10 points or less lower than the capsize DC (check result 20-29 for a keelboat, for example), then every creature aboard must attempt a DC ## Reflex saving throw (the creature may substitute a Balance check or Climb check for this Reflex save). Failure means the creature takes 1d6 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact and must succeed at a DC 20 Balance check or be knocked prone; if the creature fails by 5 or more they will be hurled overboard if they're on deck. The save DC is Strength-based and includes a –4 penalty.

If a ??? rams a vessel, it makes a Strength check to breach its hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. Regardless of the check result, every creature aboard must attempt a DC ## Reflex saving throw (the creature may substitute a Balance check or Climb check for this Reflex save). Failure means the creature takes 1d6 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact and must succeed at a DC 20 Balance check or be knocked prone; if the creature fails by 5 or more they will be hurled overboard if they're on deck. The save DC is Strength-based and includes a –4 penalty.

If a vessel's captain or master is aware of an imminent capsizing ram attack they can try to evade the impact or counterbalance their vessel to prevent it from tipping over. If the captain succeeds at a DC 20 Profession (sailor) check their ship's capsize DC increases to 30 or by +2, whichever is greater; if the result succeeds against the ram's Reflex save DC (typically a DC ## Profession (sailor) check) the ship also takes half damage from the ram and everyone aboard receives a +2 bonus to their Reflex save and skill checks against being thrown about by the impact.

In campaigns that use the nautical rules from Stormwrack a vessel's shiphandling modifier applies to Profession (sailor) check against capsizing ram attacks, if the handling modifier is a bonus, it adds to the capsize DC if the shipmaster's skill check succeeds. For example, if a vessel has +2 shiphandling a successful Profession (sailor) check increases its capsize DC to 32 or by +4, but a –2 shiphandling does not lower the capsize DC. (Note a ship's Stormwrack seaworthiness modifier is assumed to be incorporated into the vessel's capsize and breach DCs.)

EDIT: Upon reflection, I'm tempted to add a "launch" between the rowboat and keelboat on the DC progression, although that's a non-SRD vessel. Maybe Capsizing Hoist DC 24, Ramming Breach DC 23? The previous SA uses the same Ramming DCs as the Chont for the sake of consistency, but I'm tempted to tweak the Rowboat down and put the Launch in a gap between it and the Keelboat (i.e. "The break DC varies with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC 18, launch DC 21, keelboat DC 23,…" instead of "rowboat DC 20, launch or keelboat DC 23,…"

 

[freyar]

That is impressively complex! If you don't like the dragon turtle's capsize, how about we just use the chont's Ramming SA directly instead?

 

[Cleon]

That is impressively complex! If you don't like the dragon turtle's capsize, how about we just use the chont's Ramming SA directly instead?

But… but… the Afanc can capsize a ship and sink it by breaching the hull!

That said, it'd be relatively straightforward to reduce the complexity of my Cleon Special™ version by cutting out some of the extra features and melding the "rise beneath" and "ram into" options into a single option.

Like so:

Capsizing Ram (Ex): As a full-round action, a submerged afanc can swim up to quadruple speed (#0 feet) and crash into a waterborn target. To ram, the afanc must move at least 30 ft. and end in the target's space. This attack deals #d#+# [#d#+18?] points of damage. If the target is a creature it can attempt either an attack of opportunity or a DC 29 Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

If it crashes into a vessel, the afanc makes a Strength check with a +12 size bonus (total modifier +24 for a typical afanc) against a DC based on the vessel: rowboat DC 18, launch* DC 26, keelboat DC 30, sailing ship or longship DC 38, warship DC 42, or galley DC 45. If the Strength check succeeds the vessel's hull is breached, causing it to sink in 1d10 minutes, and the afanc then make another Strength check with a –4 penalty (typical modifier +20, same target DCs). If the second Strength check succeeds, the vessel capsizes and begins to sink immediately.

Regardless of the Strength check results, every creature aboard must make a DC 25 Reflex saving throw (they may substitute a Balance check or Climb check for this Reflex save), increasing to DC 29 if the vessel capsizes. Failure means the creature takes 1d6 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact and must succeed at an additional Balance or Reflex save (DC 20, or DC 28 for capsizing vessels) to avoid being knocked prone; if the creature fails the second save by 5 or more they will be hurled overboard if they're on deck. The initial save DC is Strength-based and includes a –4 penalty if the vessel didn't capsize.

*Launches are described in Stormwrack.