D&D 5E Critical Hits Appears to be Next in D&D Archive

[Spatula]

We're talking about the critical system, not automatic hits. How many times does that have to be stated? A NATURAL 20 AS AN AUTOMATIC HIT IS NOT A PART OF THE CRITICAL SYSTEM, AND THEREFORE, IS NOT A PART OF THIS DISCUSSION, WHICH IS ABOUT *GASP* CRITICALS.

You were actually talking about the disappointment of rolling a natural 20.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

If you really read the article, you'd know there's more than that. Magic weapons add extra dice to your critical, as do particular weapons. We know some abilities occur when you get a critical hit, and it's like there will be ones that get an additional benefit if you crit.

I think you hit the nail on the head here (natural 20 - a crit!) - one of the design intentions was to remove the nifty stuff from items and give it to characters. Now characters have crit activated abilities - so it doesn't really matter if the weapon only does max damage, the "cool extra" on the crit is from the character, not the weapon.

 

[Oldtimer]

You were actually talking about the disappointment of rolling a natural 20.

Huh? I'm pretty certain Mourn was talking about rolling a natural 20 and the disappointment of getting nothing extra from it. Are you reading a different thread?

 

[Pinotage]

It seemed pretty clear that the farmers "devastating blow" would be 1d4+3 turning into a 7, whereas the epic warriors would be 1d10+14 turning into 24+4d6.

But the way the mechanic is currently written, against a high AC opponent, any blow the farmer lands is a devastating blow. There's no middle ground. If your only chance to hit is a natural 20, and you automatically critical on it, you can't score a 'glancing' blow against a high AC hero. Mind you, the farmer's 7 hp is likely to be a mere scratch or dent in any case against a high AC hero.

Pinotage

 

[Dragonblade]

Very true.

To continue the videogame example...

Compare the difficulty in the two videogames Super Ghosts and Goblins, and Megaman Zero. Both are in pretty much the same genre (action/platformer), both were made by the same company, and are both considered to be difficult games, so it is a fair comparison. Megaman Zero is filled with good/real difficulty. The challenge comes from evading enemy attacks, choosing the right weapons, using good strategies, and from having to be creative with regards to new challenges. Super Ghosts and Goblins is filled with bad/fake difficulty. The difficulty comes from awkward controls, unforgiving and unfair challenges, and level design based on repetition and memorization rather than creativity. Megaman Zero is a fun game. Super Ghosts and Goblins is not a fun game.

Overall, 3E had a lot of bad/fake difficulty. 4E is trying to replace that with good difficulty. Difficulty will still be there, but it won't come from monsters with scary abilities, instead it will come from the DM's intentions.

This is an excellent analogy. This is precisely why I hate rust monsters, level drain, ability drain, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, etc. Its exactly like video games that try to increase difficulty by making the controls awkward instead of just giving you silky smooth controls and just making the encounter itself challenging. I have found that Resident Evil is like this often. I like the atmosphere and the puzzles, but a lot of times the difficulties comes from the fact that your character just can't move very well or fast.

That is frustrating and not fun at all. D&D is similar. So called "challenge" and "difficulty" should never come about as result of your character being nerfed, drained, disjoined, etc. Challenge should come from the encounter itself and the tactics the players have to use to overcome it.

In my experience, I have much more fun with DMs who realize the latter, than the former.

 

[Stalker0]

I think you hit the nail on the head here (natural 20 - a crit!) - one of the design intentions was to remove the nifty stuff from items and give it to characters. Now characters have crit activated abilities - so it doesn't really matter if the weapon only does max damage, the "cool extra" on the crit is from the character, not the weapon.

Not entirely true, as magic weapons give extra bonus on crits as well, but yes it does sound like certain powers will have crit abilities.

Hmmm, I wonder if this is one way WOTC is trying to the balance +1 enhancement mods with +X special abilities.

For example, a +1 flaming sword gives you +1 to attack, +1 + 1d6 damage, + extra 1d6 on a crit. A +2 sword gives you +2 attacks, +2 damage, and +2d6 damage on a crit.

 

[StarFyre]

hmm

To Dragonblade:

I don't think statement is true at all. My players, have alwasy dealt with rust monsters intelligently, taking advantage of what they can do.

As well, if they feel they will face undead, they research within the game, and equip, etc. They try to be prepared.

That, along with how I think some creatures SHOULD have abilities that can drain your soul, etc and thus weaken you (represented by level drain for instance), which is also prevalent in myths, etc...I think this all boils down to the hack and slash style of gameplay or more mature, RP heavier groups where battles are not as frequent unless caused by the players.

In the former, everything should be defeatable in such a way that players are not hindered in long run so that they can keep using their powers, etc. In the latter, the game world/design is much harsher, but experienced players can deal with it and enjoy it's scope/detail.

My players don't even mind if stuff like disjunction, etc occurs..to them, it makes sense that powerful casters SHOULD have powers like that; and they say the same thing to others who argue that.

I still think 4E and older editions, it all a matter between the modern video game rpg style of gamer vs the more hardcore RP style pnp. To attract new customers, they need to move to the former, instead of the latter.

Of course, you can run a campaign in the style of the latter if you wish regardless of rules, but rules are written for the majority.

Maybe my group is a rare bunch; they are shocked that level drain is removed in 4E and they are upset about it....they arent even the DM..hehe

What I do to my players; is I combine challenging enemies, powerful abilities that make sense for the creature/boss, etc, AND fully realized tactical environs, environmental effects, etc all into each encounter. Makes it alot more challenging..almost like a combat puzzle..do anything wrong, and say good night.

I think most parties wouldn't get past level 1 or 2 in my campaigns...hehe (my friends are at level 4/5 after about 2.5 years of play) -- we use a modified exp chart, not as slow as 2E but slower than 3.5E.


Sanjay

 

[Grog]

It's like winning a prize, and then maybe winning an even bigger prize a moment later.

What prize do you win if you roll a threat, and then fail the confirmation roll?

 

[jeffh]

While it may not meet the "law of non-contradiction," it certainly qualifies as "where one assumes a claim for the sake of argument, derives an absurd or ridiculous outcome, and then concludes that the original assumption must have been wrong as it led to an absurd result."

We claim that there were problems that made parts of 3.X unfun. So, people jump on that, and take it to the absurd outcome of "All of 3.X wasn't fun." And since a lot of people had fun with 3.X, this "proves" our original statement as being false.

You've completely missed the point. Reductio is a valid argument form, and is not (however you torture the above wording) what's going on here. You're saying "reductio ad absurdum" when you mean "strawman".

 

[jeffh]

What prize do you win if you roll a threat, and then fail the confirmation roll?

The auto-hit.

Having said that, Spycraft 2.0 tended to give minor bonuses just for rolling a threat, and allowed you much bigger ones for confirming a critical (by spending an action point, not via another roll). That seems like an approach where what Spatula said would be more obviously true. The tradeoff, of course, is having to explain at every turn what happens on a threat and what happens on a confirmed crit, especially given that you can crit with skills in that system.