D&D 5E CRs and what is going on?

[Shadowdweller00]

Anyone break down the balor's math in this thread yet?

I posted the proper damage calculation previously at least:

Damage Calculation Reference
3 round average - {[(21 slashing + 13 lightning (longsword) + 15 slashing + 10 fire (whip) + 10 fire (fire aura-location) + 10 fire (fire aura-melee response)] x 3 + (70 damage x two targets - death throes)} / 3 rounds = 125 or so per round.

One could nix the Death Throes, increase melee damage by as much as another 46 per round (i.e. nearly double) and the math would come out to be the same.

 

[shoak1]

I posted the proper damage calculation previously at least:

One could nix the Death Throes, increase melee damage by as much as another 46 per round (i.e. nearly double) and the math would come out to be the same.

I whole heartedly disagree w/your calcs - the balor doesn't hit every time, his aura doesn't doesnt do 30 hp /round, only a dumbell will sit adjacent and pound away, that's what reach/ranged/thrown weapons are for, and blowing up when he dies is not that big of a deal, just heal the guy 1 hp and he's back up. He just doesnt hit hard enough or fast enough to be any kind of a challenge w/o a well-rounded team backing him up.

And another thing, CR ratings based on no magic items (btw, cant find reference for that in the books, or the assertion that magic items are not part of main game) and no feats is absurd. My guess is that 95% of people play with magic items and 70% w/feats, and this is...d and d....and your telling me that the designers based a whole book of CRs on such a ridiculous assumption?!? Very disappointing and demoralizing.

And bounded accuracy seemed like a good idea, except that now anybody can beat anybody, even 12 CRs away, which makes building balanced encounters waaaay more challenging than in the past.

And as the one poster mentioned, so now the L7s pwn a balor and get a gabizillion xp and level at light speed.....its all so stupid. "OOh what's that around the corner? A Balor 12 CRs higher? Sweet! Don't be afraid, this is 5th ed. - haven't u heard of bounded accuracy? Lets go get some free xp!!!"

 

[Shadowdweller00]

I whole heartedly disagree w/your calcs - the balor doesn't hit every time, his aura doesn't doesnt do 30 hp /round, only a dumbell will sit adjacent and pound away, that's what reach/ranged/thrown weapons are for, and blowing up when he dies is not that big of a deal, just heal the guy 1 hp and he's back up. He just doesnt hit hard enough or fast enough to be any kind of a challenge w/o a well-rounded team backing him up.

That is, however, how the DMG calculates damage. Including the three round average.

 

[bgbarcus]

My guess is that 95% of people play with magic items and 70% w/feats, and this is...d and d....and your telling me that the designers based a whole book of CRs on such a ridiculous assumption?!? Very disappointing and demoralizing.

Feats and multiclassing are definitely optional this they are not considered for MM CR. Otherwise, games without those would be penalized. Player's should be able to only use the free PDF which doesn't include those optional rules while the only book purchased is the DM's copy of the Monster Manual.

5e is supposed to be a low magic system. Look at the random treasure tables in the DMG and you'll see the assumption that characters have very few magic items. A game run that way will make resistance to non-magical weapons a serious problem. If your game has lots of magic weapons, that resistance shouldn't be considered in the CR calculations.

.....its all so stupid. "OOh what's that around the corner? A Balor 12 CRs higher? Sweet! Don't be afraid, this is 5th ed. - haven't u heard of bounded accuracy? Lets go get some free xp!!!"

I agree that the CR's be MM are not well matched to any party that does not meet those limitations above. More than four characters means the number of actions focused on the monster are overwhelming. Even legendary actions barely keep up. A "normal" supply of magic items makes the party way more capable than MM CR anticipated.

My group of six PC's and up to three henchmen with at least one magic weapon each completely breaks the MM. That's OK, I simply adjusted the monsters to match my game. Most of them got a significant HP boost. Others got better AC. Some legendary features were slightly boosted. But what really makes the biggest difference is playing the monsters smarter. In their lair they have home field advantage in the form of supporting monsters, modified terrain, traps, knowledge of positions with tactical benefits, etc.

It doesn't bother me that the MM durante fit my game perfectly. No published material ever has, and I couldn't care less about balance. Fairness is for kindergarten. Adventurers are out to beat the odds, run away when they're overmatched, or get a fun turkey shoot out of the occasional easy encounter.

Even if you don't like the idea of the. MM not being a perfect document you should consider personalizing the monsters anyway. Meeting the same thing you already know how to beat is OK for the minor encounters but the big battles should always give the players a delightful surprise. That's how the game starts fresh after decades of play.

Ignore CR, use the book as a spark to your imagination. Give the balor guaranteed summoning of two other fiends (it is a ruler) for support and let at least one of those summon further support and that encounter turns nasty. No reason PC's should be the only entities that get to summon helpers.

 

[shoak1]

5e is supposed to be a low magic system. Look at the random treasure tables in the DMG and you'll see the assumption that characters have very few magic items. A game run that way will make resistance to non-magical weapons a serious problem. If your game has lots of magic weapons, that resistance shouldn't be considered in the CR calculations.

Take a look again; my rough analysis of the CR 5-10 tables (as an example) shows 1.26 disposable pot/scroll and 0.6 non-disp. magic item/hoard CR 5-10; so 7 such hoards in 3 levels= 8.5 disposable and 4.2 non-disp.magic items per 3 levels for the party; so thats 2 pots/scrolls and 1 magic item per PC per 3 levels.

A "normal" supply of magic items makes the party way more capable than MM CR anticipated.

Your right, my original example did not include a "normal" number of magic items - I should have given him more. In actuality, the L19 fighter should have had 6-7 magic items by time he had the meeting w/the balrog and at least 1 relevant potion - so lets give him a pot of fire resist or speed, +1 shield, +3 plate, a +1 polearm, +2 sword, ring of prot +1, belt of giant strength...fair enough?

I agree that the CR's be MM are not well matched to any party that does not meet those limitations above. More than four characters means the number of actions focused on the monster are overwhelming. Even legendary actions barely keep up.

uhhh yeah it takes more than 4 level 7s, but i'm guessing 4 L9s would prob.pwn him.

But what really makes the biggest difference is playing the monsters smarter. In their lair they have home field advantage in the form of supporting monsters, modified terrain, traps, knowledge of positions with tactical benefits, etc.

Dude - PLAYERS can play smart too, just like DMs - and giving them lair stuff, tactical position, and allies adds to the CR so its not really germaine to a discussion re a monster's CR rating.

It doesn't bother me that the MM durante fit my game perfectly. No published material ever has, and I couldn't care less about balance. Fairness is for kindergarten. Adventurers are out to beat the odds, run away when they're overmatched, or get a fun turkey shoot out of the occasional easy encounter.

A lack of balance bothers me, and many other consumers of this game.... and yeah,there were far more balanced works - 3.5 and 4e had some problems but were MUCH better in THIS aspect - they had clear, reasonable CRs that MEANT something.

Ignore CR, use the book as a spark to your imagination.

I don't need a spark, I need some stats I can reasonably rely on, so that I don't have to do EVERYTHING from scratch.

I really don't understand apologists lol
I say:This rule is unbalanced! Apologist response: Make your own rule up, you can, it says so in the book!
I say: This monsters stats are waaay off. Apologist response: Use it to spark your imagination!
I say: This module was boring. Apologist response: Make your own! You can, it says so in the book!

LOL I paid WOTC to make this game, they did sloppy work in this aspect of it, and I am calling them out for it - kapesh?
If I pay for dry cleaning and my shirt comes back with dirt on it, I'm gonna have something to say. I suppose our apologist here would say "Oh well, they inspired me to do my own cleaning. Yay!" Whatever. lol

 

[Hussar]

It's funny to see people now claim that 3e CR is clear and reasonable.

See, I don't see it as being an apologist. I look at the problems you folks talk about and I simply don't see the same problems.

To give you an idea, my 8th level fighter, before last session had exactly ONE magic item. We simply don't dump gobs of treasure in our adventures. Even our recent LMoP side campaign ended at 4th level with only two of the six pc's with a magic weapon, fairly minimal cash and AFAIK, no magic armor.

So you dumping custom magic items perfectly fitting with the PC is just not a problem I'm seeing in my game. After all, why a +2 sword and not a Flame Tongue? Which would throw a big wrench in the fighter. Why a Girdle of Giant Strength and not Boots of the North? Or some other rare or very rare non-combat item.

Yes, if you presume the PCs get everything perfectly tailored to their characters then sure they are more powerful.

I don't play that way.

 

[Flamestrike]

I don't like the idea of making really big creatures harder to hit by simple metagame reasons such as challenge rating. Harder to damage, perhaps yes. A creature such as balor is huge, and easy to hit, but ancient and powerful. No Joe Schmoe with a +1 sword should be just hacking it to pieces. That makes it not very scary at all.

For a balor, I would give it DR 15/ legendary (7th). This means that this bad boy has DR 15 vs. any weapon that is not legendary in rarity or magic below the 7th level in power. Thus most normal hits from standard magic weapons will be greatly reduced in effect, as will lesser magics. A 7th level party would not want to tangle with that balor unless they were overloaded with legendary weapons.

I dont like this because it means martials need (powerful weapon outside of class) while casters get (inherent ability to smack down Balor).

I would be on board with DR 15 (overcome only by characters of a certain tier or better)

I.e Only Legendary tier characters overcome the DR of legendary tier monsters.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I dont like this because it means martials need (powerful weapon outside of class) while casters get (inherent ability to smack down Balor).

You could bring back AD&D-style Magic Resistance. Balors had a 70% chance to flatly ignore any spell cast on them, or even to collapse an existing spell by entering its AoE, which is much better than 5E Magic Resistance.

 

[Prism]

Take a look again; my rough analysis of the CR 5-10 tables (as an example) shows 1.26 disposable pot/scroll and 0.6 non-disp. magic item/hoard CR 5-10; so 7 such hoards in 3 levels= 8.5 disposable and 4.2 non-disp.magic items per 3 levels for the party; so thats 2 pots/scrolls and 1 magic item per PC per 3 levels.

If it helps page 133 tells us that an average campaign finds 45 hoards during its lifetime. The permanent items are on tables F, G, H and I. During the first ten levels the party might find an item off those tables roughly 11 times (using your calculation), most likely from table F. There is a chance that one or more of those 11 is a random magic weapon but its unlikely to be more than one. So I would say the chances of a party defeating the balor by 10th level are pretty slim as they probably can't damage it using weapons, and often not a magic weapon of their choice.

Your right, my original example did not include a "normal" number of magic items - I should have given him more. In actuality, the L19 fighter should have had 6-7 magic items by time he had the meeting w/the balrog and at least 1 relevant potion - so lets give him a pot of fire resist or speed, +1 shield, +3 plate, a +1 polearm, +2 sword, ring of prot +1, belt of giant strength...fair enough?

Over the 11-20 level range the party finds another 12 items (20 hoards, 25% chance of 2.5 items). Each party member might get 3 of them. The chances of finding a ring of protection is slim. Magical plate mail of any type is incredibly rare since its a 2% chance of +1 plate on table I. You have slightly more chance of getting a +2 or +3 shield to be honest but even that's unlikely.

So using the guidance provided I think your example has too much gear, or should I say too much gear that is perfect for the character. I'm not saying that the CRs are right though as you don't really need any of that stuff to defeat the balor. A +1 weapon would do it.

Our group doesn't generally play that way. When DMing we often tune the items a little for the characters and also allow magic item trade. However we are aware that this effects the ability to use the CR system as well

 

[Prism]

I just put together a quick example of permanent magic items found as a party levels up from 1-20 and discovers treasure hoards all rolled as per the DMG. I tend to assign items rather than roll when I DM so thought a comparison of what I give out to what is expected if rolling would be worth doing. I only rolled once so this is very anecdotal.

Levels 1-4 : bag of tricks (tan), javelin of lightning
Levels 5-10 : gloves of thievery, necklace of adaption, pearl of power, bag of tricks (rust), stone of good luck, ioun stone (protection), arrow catching shield
Levels 11-16 : deck of many things, cloak of arachnida, scimitar of speed, +3 weapon (Maul), armour of resistance (Psychic) (splint)
Levels 17-20 : robe of eyes, +2 weapon (shortsword), mace of smiting, ioun stone (sustenance)

So this party would not be able to take on a Balor easily until the 11-16 level range where they find their first magic weapons. I rolled these late in the sequence so maybe 15th level or so. The party gets no plussed magic armour at all for their entire career. If somebody wants to wear the magic splint mail they will probably be sacrificing a point of AC.

This has reminded me that rolling items can give out some very interesting stuff rather than always giving the player something a bit more combat useful