D&D (2024) Current Stealth Rule Actually Works As Is. If Moving Out of Cover After Hiding Makes Enemies Immediately "Finds You", Hide Would Be Totally UNUSABLE.

[Xeviat]

This is very sensible but I think they are trying to give a 'free' round of stealth by rolling against a static DC. What you do in that round determines whether you are still stealthed next round but the surprise factor means you have it until you don't. So you don't lose it as soon as you break cover; unless you do one of the things that break it automatically, like speak louder than a whisper.

See, I can see "Hide" as an action since you're attempting to hide. You're now hidden, people don't know where you are (but they probably know where you were, but you could have teleported for all they know). So you hide, then attack from hidden and gain the benefits of being hidden, but now you're not hidden because you didn't take the hide action. It still works.

Performing actions or moving while hiding, and attempting to stay hidden, should require additional checks. But other than moving slowly, I don't have to "spend an action" to sneak up on someone.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Someone said something in here that gave me an AHA! moment; rolling Stealth to hide is dumb.

You're behind a big tree in a forest and use the Hide action and no one's around; what are you rolling against? What's the flat check mean? Why can you stand behind the tree and keep rolling Hide checks until you get a nat 20?

I will never understand why people keep claiming that you can just keep re-rolling. The rules state the DM calls for the check. Are you going to keep calling for the check until your player gets a 20? If I player starts a performance, do you allow them to restart the peformance every six seconds, re-rolling and re-rolling until they roll high enough to succeed? Do they get to remake persuasion checks until they succeed? Why would younot only expect stealth to work differently but claim it clearly does?

As for why the flat check exists, it is pretty simple. It is to prevent the constant re-rolling of the stealth, and to allow a target number for the player to know they are rolling against. Let us say you have an abandoned keep, but the player wants to proceed stealthily. You as the DM know that the first three rooms are empty, but that there is a Gargoyle in the fourth room. Well, instead of having the player just be declared sneaking until they need to roll stealth in room four against a supposedly empty room, you can have them room against the 15 to start with. Then if they roll a 12, they can use psionic knack, or spend a bardic inspiration, or use a heroic inspiration, or use lucky, or any of a dozen abilities that only work when you fail a check.

It is faster, obscures more information about the enemy, and allows the player to use their abilities.

Hide should be an action. Then, when you do something that could get you noticed, you roll Stealth against their passive perception. Moving? Make a stealth check. Taking the dash action? Make a stealth check at disadvantage. Moving from one pillar to the next in a brightly lit area with guards present? Make a stealth check at disadvantage, hoping no one looks your way while you step out from behind cover. It's the middle of a fight and you duck behind a wall and try to hide so your enemy doesn't know when you're going to pop up and shoot your crossbow? Make a stealth check when you try to attack from hiding to see if you go unnoticed.

Then, be judicious about what observers are doing. Guard is dosing or chatting with another guard? -5 on their passive Perception. Guard is standing motionless and staring in one direction like Scotland Yard? Regular Passive Perception from the front, -5 to the rear. Guard is vigilant and looking around in every direction? +5 to passive perception.

You should only make skill checks when you try to do something. Move Silently. Snipe. Sneak past an open window. Sneak up behind someone. Sure, you can practice hiding by yourself and see how quiet you can be, but it should be per action.

The problem with "per action" is that the more often you need to re-roll, the more likely you are to fail. If I need to roll stealth to approach the wall, then to get over the wall, then to get through the courtyard, then to get up to the castle, then to get in the castle, then to reach the stairs, then to go up the stairs, then to pass by the first guard, then to pass by the second guard, then to... I am essentially guaranteed to fail at SOME point, because I'm rapidly approaching making 20 rolls of the dice, which also slows down gameplay.

Instead, you roll once per stealth attempt, and as long as your stealth isn't broken, you just keep using the same one. In combat, it will break all the time, because you are attacking, but if you successfully sneak halfway through the castle, then the other half can continue using the same check, greatly reducing the number of rolls needed.

 

[OB1]

@Soulknife_Infiltrator thank you for the wonderful breakdown. I think this all makes sense, but with one caveat. For it to work in all situations (not just combat encounters), I would have liked to see the rule state that "you gain the Invisible condition until the end of your next turn." With that, we have a straightforward way to adjudicate the rule, while avoiding some of the absurd results where you take the Hide action a mile away from the gate, rolling until you get a Nat20, and then walk past the guards invisibly (note that I personally would call for additional stealth checks in a situation like that, so I'm only talking about the absurdity of the strict reading of the rule).

Conversely, the rule could also add a feature that if you leave the area of cover/darkness/etc. that you must make a new stealth check to avoid breaking the condition (again, I'd rule this anyhow since cover breaks if you make a sound louder than a whisper, and moving your position would have enough uncertainty to warrant a check) but as you mentioned, that makes the feature nearly worthless in actual play.

What do you think? Would a "until the end of your next turn" addendum to the Hide rule be enough to not throw the baby out with the bathwater?

 

[Belen]

Sorry, no. You do not remain invisible in plain sight.

The player could rp it and say that they move quickly while a back it turned etc but no stealth check works by stealthing out in the open.

As for Chaosmancer’s point, you are moving from cover to cover and I would be ok with that as it would be a quick action.

 

[Pauln6]

Sorry, no. You do not remain invisible in plain sight.

The player could rp it and say that they move quickly while a back it turned etc but no stealth check works by stealthing out in the open.

As for Chaosmancer’s point, you are moving from cover to cover and I would be ok with that as it would be a quick action.

I think in most cases, it should work. If a guard is on high alert staring down a corridor they might effectively be holding their action to react as soon as they see someone. A guard who is not as alert might be caught "off guard" - the clue is in the name. Maybe dozing, peeing, or just distracted polishing or sharpening their weapon.

 

[Charlaquin]

Here is my quick attempt at Stealth rules:

Stealth

You can use the Stealth skill to sneak and avoid notice. Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you try to move or perform an action stealthily. Your Dexterity (Stealth) check is compared against the Passive Perception scores of anyone who could notice you. If your check meets or beats their score, you perform the action unnoticed; if the action is overt or noisy (like taking the Attack action or casting a spell with a Verbal component), you do not remain hidden afterwards; your DM may let you attempt a Dexterity (Stealth) check with disadvantage if circumstances allow it (such as casting a spell with verbal components quietly in loud surroundings). While you are hidden from a creature, that creature does not know what space you are in (though it may know which direction you went if you hid behind something) and you gain advantage to attack creatures you are hidden from.

Your Stealth check automatically fails if you are being directly observed. You need some kind of cover or obscurement to perform an action Stealthily; approaching quietly from behind, hiding in shadows, blending into a noisy crowd, etc. Creatures with special senses, like echo location and scent, may require alternate forms of cover or obscurement to hide from.

Not having a "Move Action" really makes it complicated. I'd probably say moving silently requires a Stealth check, and the dash action would be a Stealth check at disadvantage.

I don’t think stealth even needs explicit rules. There’s nothing you would ever need stealth for that can’t be covered by the normal action resolution rules. At most, it might be helpful to include a recommendation in the description of the stealth skill that DMs use the passive Perception of creatures who might notice a character performing an action with the skill as the DC for the check.

 

[Xeviat]

I will never understand why people keep claiming that you can just keep re-rolling. The rules state the DM calls for the check. Are you going to keep calling for the check until your player gets a 20? If I player starts a performance, do you allow them to restart the peformance every six seconds, re-rolling and re-rolling until they roll high enough to succeed? Do they get to remake persuasion checks until they succeed? Why would younot only expect stealth to work differently but claim it clearly does?

As for why the flat check exists, it is pretty simple. It is to prevent the constant re-rolling of the stealth, and to allow a target number for the player to know they are rolling against. Let us say you have an abandoned keep, but the player wants to proceed stealthily. You as the DM know that the first three rooms are empty, but that there is a Gargoyle in the fourth room. Well, instead of having the player just be declared sneaking until they need to roll stealth in room four against a supposedly empty room, you can have them room against the 15 to start with. Then if they roll a 12, they can use psionic knack, or spend a bardic inspiration, or use a heroic inspiration, or use lucky, or any of a dozen abilities that only work when you fail a check.

It is faster, obscures more information about the enemy, and allows the player to use their abilities.

Okay, that part makes sense. But the flat check is still a little weird; it's not easier to sneak up on a baby than a regular person? It's DC 15 for everyone?

Hide action = DC 15 and you're invisible feels gamey, that's why people are mentioning rerolling. If someone gets a 15, what's stopping them from saying "eh, I don't think I'm hidden well enough, can I try again?" Rolling first does create odd things.

The problem with "per action" is that the more often you need to re-roll, the more likely you are to fail. If I need to roll stealth to approach the wall, then to get over the wall, then to get through the courtyard, then to get up to the castle, then to get in the castle, then to reach the stairs, then to go up the stairs, then to pass by the first guard, then to pass by the second guard, then to... I am essentially guaranteed to fail at SOME point, because I'm rapidly approaching making 20 rolls of the dice, which also slows down gameplay.

Instead, you roll once per stealth attempt, and as long as your stealth isn't broken, you just keep using the same one. In combat, it will break all the time, because you are attacking, but if you successfully sneak halfway through the castle, then the other half can continue using the same check, greatly reducing the number of rolls needed.

But it is harder to hide for a long time and do multiple things while hiding. So someone happens to roll a 20 and as long as they stay behind people or in obscurement they're basically invisible forever? A 1st level Rogue could have a +7 Stealth bonus easily. Since they roll a Stealth check to use the Hide action, if they get a 20 they know they beat anything with a passive perception of less than 27 (or 22 with advantage) and are golden for ... how long? A minute? An hour?

This could be handled if Stealth is rolled when you try to do something stealthily. It depends on what kind of rounds you're in. Combat? That's per round/action. In a dungeon? Per 1 minute of exploration actions. Traveling? Per 1 hour of traveling actions.

You're guaranteed to miss some attacks sometimes. The rogue is gonna knock over a vase or step on a creaky board eventually too.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Okay, that part makes sense. But the flat check is still a little weird; it's not easier to sneak up on a baby than a regular person? It's DC 15 for everyone?

Hide action = DC 15 and you're invisible feels gamey, that's why people are mentioning rerolling. If someone gets a 15, what's stopping them from saying "eh, I don't think I'm hidden well enough, can I try again?" Rolling first does create odd things.

They are standardizing the checks, to show that the default DC is 15. It is 15 for influence and 15 for stealth. IF you want to make it easier, go ahead, no one will stop you.

And the thing stopping them is the rules stating that the DM calls for the check. You call for the initial check that they roll first. It represents them starting to sneak in. You don't allow people to start a negotiation, stop and say "eh, I don't think I'm negotiating well enough, can I try again?" so why would you for Stealth? They performed their actions and started moving, they don't get a do over.

But it is harder to hide for a long time and do multiple things while hiding. So someone happens to roll a 20 and as long as they stay behind people or in obscurement they're basically invisible forever? A 1st level Rogue could have a +7 Stealth bonus easily. Since they roll a Stealth check to use the Hide action, if they get a 20 they know they beat anything with a passive perception of less than 27 (or 22 with advantage) and are golden for ... how long? A minute? An hour?

If they are still stealthing, why not? Investigating a room can take up to an hour, and is a single roll. You don't re-roll investigation for every piece of furniture, or if you spend a week researching you don't re-roll for every single book. A single check can cover a longer period of time.

And you can still have them re-roll after something significant alters. If they stab someone, they need to re-roll. If they end up getting to the room they were looking to break into, and investigate to tear the room apart, then as they leave, they need to re-roll. But if they roll really high, and they are just scoping the place out and don't do anything else... it was one narrative action, so why force them to make seven rolls?

This could be handled if Stealth is rolled when you try to do something stealthily. It depends on what kind of rounds you're in. Combat? That's per round/action. In a dungeon? Per 1 minute of exploration actions. Traveling? Per 1 hour of traveling actions.

You're guaranteed to miss some attacks sometimes. The rogue is gonna knock over a vase or step on a creaky board eventually too.

Right, but if you miss in combat, it doesn't immediately lead to you losing the combat. If you fail a single stealth check, then you have failed the entire stealth mission and need to either fight or flee. IF you were in a combat where missing the enemy a single time meant death, then you would be essentially guaranteed to lose, and that is what happens when you turn a single narrative action "I want to sneak into the camp and find the prisoners" into seven checks, each one more likely to fail than the last (statistically) and ever more dangerous for the character who likely is moving solo because that is how scouting works.

Seriously, rolling a natural 1 on a d20 is a 5% chance. Over the course of three rolls, the odds of getting at least one nat 1 is 14.26%. The more times you force a character to roll a check, the more likely they are going to fail. So we should not encourage rolling again and again and again and again. "Oh, you moved from low security area to high security area?" Okay, that makes sense to re-roll. "Okay, you hid behind the box, then stepped out and slipped behind the guard, then moved into the room by the entrance, then exited into the hallway, then waited for the next patrol to pass... that's five stealth checks please" is not reasonable. It is setting the character up to fail.

 

[Soulknife_Infiltrator]

while avoiding some of the absurd results where you take the Hide action a mile away from the gate, rolling until you get a Nat20, and then walk past the guards invisibly (note that I personally would call for additional stealth checks in a situation like that, so I'm only talking about the absurdity of the strict reading of the rule).

Well, technically, players can't keep rolling until they get a N20. Only DMs can ask players for a check, which is RAW. DMs also won't let players to Hide a a mile away if there's no reason and nothing near to Hide from, which is also RAW. In practice, this just won't happen even if we didn't houserule it.

 

[FrogReaver]

Well, technically, players can't keep rolling until they get a N20. Only DMs can ask players for a check, which is RAW. DMs also won't let players to Hide a a mile away if there's no reason and nothing near to Hide from, which is also RAW. In practice, this just won't happen even if we didn't houserule it.

1). The dm has ruled the pc can hide. PC rolls a 1. PC says okay I go over there and try to hide again. I’m not sure what fictional basis I have to generally deny the second attempt.

2). Even if he does deny the second attempt the player still knows he’s not hidden, so he just doesnt play stealthily.

3). And maybe most importantly, what the heck does a failed hide check look like in the fiction doing it this way. PC is already out of sight of enemies, so what happens?