D&D 5E Current take on GWM/SS
- Thread starter CapnZapp
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Psikerlord#
Explorer
DMG p.71 - tailor the adventure to your group. So if the group likes combat, you will have lots of it. This is not inconsistent with the game design. It's the -5/+10 stuffs things up. You use a kind of spotlight balance, which is fine for some tables, but not all. And for those where it is not fine, you need better balance in areas such as damage.
The game's core design (not using optional feats or MCing) actually has a very balanced damage ballpark for all PCs. But the -5/+10 throws it out of whack. 55% think there is an issue. I imagine of the 45% who are content/not too upset, most of them are probably playing low level games and havent seen the true horror of the -5/+10 yet.
Personally, I suspect the mechanic was included in a misguided effort to recreate the (dreadful imo) striker role of 4e. If you like that sort of thing they're fine. If not.... blurgh.
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iserith
Magic Wordsmith
The game's core design (not using optional feats or MCing) actually has a very balanced damage ballpark for all PCs. It is the -5/+10 that throws it out of whack. 55% think there is an issue. I imagine of the 45% who are content/not too upset, most of them are probably playing low level games and havent seen the true horror of the -5/+10 yet.
Personally, I suspect the mechanic was included in a misguided effort to recreate the (dreadful imo) striker role of 4e. If you like that sort of thing they're fine. If not.... blurgh.
But if you have a game that has some measure of balance between the three pillars of the game, then characters that out-damage others simply aren't a problem. The guy or gal who didn't take that feat likely took some other feat and is now shining in social interaction or exploration. Spotlight time is thus shared equally. This is further bolstered by a the guy or gal or who has the feat sometimes not using it so others in the scene look more awesome.
Like I mentioned to DaveDash, show me your encounter and adventure design and we'll see what's what.
Some of what you say is true. The 3E/Pathfinder mentality is strong in my players.
We'll see how it plays out in time.
Psikerlord#
Explorer
This is only true if your table wants spotlight balance of this kind. Which I have found many dont, and prefer to focus on combat. But I get your point.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
Then as I suspected it's the approach is what's making the feat questionable. The feat itself is otherwise okay given a different approach. In a roleplaying game, I submit that game balance (read: combat balance) is only important as it relates to sharing the spotlight.
As an side, it might be worthwhile to examine why the group prefers combat to the other pillars. As DM, I'd be asking myself, "What can I do to make exploration and social interaction more appealing to my players?" I'd also be asking the players. Exploration and social interaction can be really boring if the DM doesn't present it in a particular way. The key is to present it in a way that engages the players. In the case of players who are keen on math and combat, rewarding exploration and social interaction with things that will give them a boon in combat later is one easy way to do it. Another way is to make sure the stakes for scenes drawing upon the other two pillars are as compelling as combat. This is fodder for another thread, of course, but it's worth considering I think.
Well, I'm going to test one last thing. The campaign where the GWM problem showed up was run by the other guy that DMs. I'm a bit more ruthless than he is. Last fight I ran I shut down the Sharpshooter and nearly killed him. I have one player that cares very little for optimization both as a DM and a player. It drives him a bit nuts when the other players min-max. I feel my motivation to rein in these feats is partially driven by my desire to have him DM. If he burns out, I'd probably end up stuck DMing. I like to play now and again. He was really frustrated dealing with GWM novas while running the game.
I found Sharpshooter somewhat annoying. You get in the Sharpshooters face with the monsters, you can take him down. Bounded Accuracy works both ways. I usually give the enemies Sharpshooter or GWF to balance things out.
Who knows. I may be having a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the nightmare that Pathfinder became when we quite Mythic Adventures.
I found Sharpshooter somewhat annoying. You get in the Sharpshooters face with the monsters, you can take him down. Bounded Accuracy works both ways. I usually give the enemies Sharpshooter or GWF to balance things out.
Who knows. I may be having a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the nightmare that Pathfinder became when we quite Mythic Adventures.
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iserith
Magic Wordsmith
Out of curiosity, of those of you who are having trouble with these feats, how many cleave closely to the encounter building guidelines in the DMG? Would you say you stick to them very closely, somewhat closely, or not at all? If you stick to them at least somewhat closely, what difficulty level (Easy, Medium, Hard, Deadly) are you including in your games?
I use them a little bit. I also value certain abilities more than others. Pack Tactics is more powerful in most combat situations than the Dash ability of orcs. Now in certain situations such as trying to flee, that orc dash ability is powerful. I have found the martial advantage ability of hobgoblins makes them more dangerous than the special ability of gnolls. Some of these skew the encounter building guidelines bit one way or the other.
I'm the kind of DM that starts trying to use the baseline. Then once I get experience, I do things my own way. I know what my players can handle. I know how I want an encounter to play out. I've been relatively successful making encounters play as I want them to play.
My players certainly don't mind the other two pillars on occasion. Everyone likes a bit of political intrigue or romance or a riddle game or hall of traps. The non-min/max player really enjoyed kingdom building, which was a mix of exploration and social. They all loved Kingmaker. The other two if only to role-play being rulers of a kingdom.
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