D&D 5E Current take on GWM/SS
- Thread starter CapnZapp
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For the Wolf Totem advantage? That's only on melee attack rolls, so it wouldn't work for a crossbow even if you're next to the target.
I can't recall what weapon the Barb player was using. I actually think he may have been using a shield, because he was aiming for the "ultra tank" kind of role. He was pretty hard to take down and did decent damage.
Lore Bard/Life Cleric was melee yeah, and did the whole shove thing a lot. He may have had shield master feat, but I can't recall. I'd then move in with the XBE for the kill.
We did a lot of party optimization so didn't need the net, but it's an interesting trick.
We used Polymorph a lot as a replacement for Heal. Everyone taking damage? No worries, twin polymorph the damage away (temporarily of course)! Bard can also Polymorph. Pretty frustrating for the DM.
As a result I've houseruled SS, XBE, and also the grapple/shove rules back to being STR/DEX only.
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Psikerlord#
Explorer
And this is why only looking at averages is bad. The average says, ah, it aint that bad, dont worrry about it. But it doesnt take into account minimums and maximums. When someone gets lucky, all sorts of brokenness appears - the +10 makes getting lucky more powerful than usual, much more powerful than the average. The feat gives him the capacity to do crazy damage, the maximum is just as important - in practice - as the average.
On the other hand, if he hadnt had the +10 on top of everything else. there wouldnt be a problem. But I'm just repeating myself now. I'm pretty sure I've had the dpr discussion at least 20 times on Enworld. I dont expect to change anyone's mind on this particular issue.
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Yup. A range of 40-60 is going to be much less problematic for a DM than a range of 1-100, despite the fact they both have the same approximate average.
I've actually had streaks as a DM where I've rolled maybe 3-4 crits a session. One session I rolled 4 crits *in a row*. In the hands of a player which a high maximum that lucky streak would have cake walked through 3-4 sessions worth of challenges. With a lower maximum, not as bad.
On the other hand it's not normally an issue if there is an unlucky streak, anything that increases the challenge is generally a good thing. Anything that trivializes content is not, as it cheapens the entire experience. Something the maths never takes into account.
+10 per multiple attacks plus often an additional attack from the feat. At level 13, that can easily be 55+ extra points of damage (3 attacks at +10, an additional attack for say 25 at least) with decent (not even great) rolls over someone without the feat. 100 to 110 is not far out of the question, especially with a critical in the mix. Throw an Action Surge and some superiority dice on top of that and it could be 130 to 140. Granted, the extra damage in such a situation from GWM is maybe 65 of those points, but that's a significant increase. 45% to 50% increase in damage. Average is pretty large. Typical maximum with a single critical (to get the extra attack) might be near 150 (shy of other damage buffs). Talking dice rolls here, so maximum on 10D6 (+2D6 per critical) plus a few superiority dice is for all intents and purposes not going to happen in a game, even re-rolling 1s and 2s. A 5+ average on D6 dice (rerolling initial 1s and 2s) is not unheard of though.
Doing this with Hold and an Action Surge (without superiority dice or a magic weapon, just Str 20 and GWM), ups the damage with average rolls (assuming all hit) to about 160.
Granted, not every attack will hit every time, but with Hold, it's likely that most of them will (~128 if one misses).
aramis erak
Legend
My experience is that the GWM fighter of level ≤8 never has a buff bigger than +1 - because no cleric is giving them to GWM fighters. I've seen bless cast exactly twice in the entirety of my gaming 5E - And in both cases, the Rogues (plural) got the bless, not the GWM. Why? Because the Rogues do more damage by going front line. Have the fighter pick the target, bless the rogues, and the sneak attacks make shorter work.
Likewise, for Bardic Inspiration. The Rogues and spellcasters are getting that, so that they hit from range.
And, in general, +1 from weapon.
Hell, it's only been the last 6 weeks anyone's even played a CLERIC at all at a table I've run. Of the 30+ people weekly at my FLGS, 3 play clerics. There's a stack of printed out unplayed pregen clerics. Meanwhile, there's not for other classes.
It's just not a given.
Even with a +4 buff (which is purely to-hit - so just subtract 4 from the AC's), it changes the average damage only slightly. Especially in season 2 adventures. Half the fighters with GWM & GWFS have gotten rid of GWM as not worthwhile, when the bonus to strength has served them better. (Gotta love those rebuilds in tier 1.)
I've not been saying they're worthless - but at low levels (≤8) they are not as good as raising the attribute. At 12th level, they're worth considering, because you've already maxed the attribute. If you can, with a +4 or +5 strength mod, get the to hit down to where a natural 10 is needed to hit, then GWM increases your damage output.... by a few points of average per attack. It's still not significant long run. The -5 is really balanced against the +10.
The interaction of SS & XBM is a bit more potent - but two feats is a HUGE cost, and should be a significant bonus. 2 extra 1sts and 4 extra cantrips, or +4 to an attribute (+2 att bonus).
And the table...
This compares the average damage per attack (not action) based upon a +5 att bonus. The left hand index is the natural roll needed to hit after all mods; the table entry shows unmodified/power attack and which is better.
| AC-THB | d4 | d6 | d8 | d10 | d12 | 2d6 | 1d10+GWFS | 1d12+GWFS | 2d6 + GWFS | |||
| 20 | 0.5/1.75 Pwr | 0.6/1.85 Pwr | 0.7/1.95 Pwr | 0.8/2.05 Pwr | 0.9/2.15 Pwr | 0.95/2.2 Pwr | 0.8833/2.1333 Pwr | 0.9833/2.2333 Pwr | 1.0833/2.3333 Pwr | |||
| 19 | 0.875/1.75 Pwr | 1.025/1.85 Pwr | 1.175/1.95 Pwr | 1.325/2.05 Pwr | 1.475/2.15 Pwr | 1.55/2.2 Pwr | 1.44995/2.1333 Pwr | 1.59995/2.2333 Pwr | 1.74995/2.3333 Pwr | |||
| 18 | 1.25/1.75 Pwr | 1.45/1.85 Pwr | 1.65/1.95 Pwr | 1.85/2.05 Pwr | 2.05/2.15 Pwr | 2.15/2.2 Pwr | 2.0166/2.1333 Pwr | 2.2166/2.2333 Pwr | 2.4166/2.3333 Std | |||
| 17 | 1.625/1.75 Pwr | 1.875/1.85 Std | 2.125/1.95 Std | 2.375/2.05 Std | 2.625/2.15 Std | 2.75/2.2 Std | 2.58325/2.1333 Std | 2.83325/2.2333 Std | 3.08325/2.3333 Std | |||
| 16 | 2/1.75 Std | 2.3/1.85 Std | 2.6/1.95 Std | 2.9/2.05 Std | 3.2/2.15 Std | 3.35/2.2 Std | 3.1499/2.1333 Std | 3.4499/2.2333 Std | 3.7499/2.3333 Std | |||
| 15 | 2.375/1.75 Std | 2.725/1.85 Std | 3.075/1.95 Std | 3.425/2.05 Std | 3.775/2.15 Std | 3.95/2.2 Std | 3.71655/2.1333 Std | 4.06655/2.2333 Std | 4.41655/2.3333 Std | |||
| 14 | 2.75/2.625 Std | 3.15/2.775 Std | 3.55/2.925 Std | 3.95/3.075 Std | 4.35/3.225 Std | 4.55/3.3 Std | 4.2832/3.19995 Std | 4.6832/3.34995 Std | 5.0832/3.49995 Std | |||
| 13 | 3.125/3.5 Pwr | 3.575/3.7 Pwr | 4.025/3.9 Std | 4.475/4.1 Std | 4.925/4.3 Std | 5.15/4.4 Std | 4.84985/4.2666 Std | 5.29985/4.4666 Std | 5.74985/4.6666 Std | |||
| 12 | 3.5/4.375 Pwr | 4/4.625 Pwr | 4.5/4.875 Pwr | 5/5.125 Pwr | 5.5/5.375 Std | 5.75/5.5 Std | 5.4165/5.33325 Std | 5.9165/5.58325 Std | 6.4165/5.83325 Std | |||
| 11 | 3.875/5.25 Pwr | 4.425/5.55 Pwr | 4.975/5.85 Pwr | 5.525/6.15 Pwr | 6.075/6.45 Pwr | 6.35/6.6 Pwr | 5.98315/6.3999 Pwr | 6.53315/6.6999 Pwr | 7.08315/6.9999 Std | |||
| 10 | 4.25/6.125 Pwr | 4.85/6.475 Pwr | 5.45/6.825 Pwr | 6.05/7.175 Pwr | 6.65/7.525 Pwr | 6.95/7.7 Pwr | 6.5498/7.46655 Pwr | 7.1498/7.81655 Pwr | 7.7498/8.16655 Pwr | |||
| 9 | 4.625/7 Pwr | 5.275/7.4 Pwr | 5.925/7.8 Pwr | 6.575/8.2 Pwr | 7.225/8.6 Pwr | 7.55/8.8 Pwr | 7.11645/8.5332 Pwr | 7.76645/8.9332 Pwr | 8.41645/9.3332 Pwr | |||
| 8 | 5/7.875 Pwr | 5.7/8.325 Pwr | 6.4/8.775 Pwr | 7.1/9.225 Pwr | 7.8/9.675 Pwr | 8.15/9.9 Pwr | 7.6831/9.59985 Pwr | 8.3831/10.04985 Pwr | 9.0831/10.49985 Pwr | |||
| 7 | 5.375/8.75 Pwr | 6.125/9.25 Pwr | 6.875/9.75 Pwr | 7.625/10.25 Pwr | 8.375/10.75 Pwr | 8.75/11 Pwr | 8.24975/10.6665 Pwr | 8.99975/11.1665 Pwr | 9.74975/11.6665 Pwr | |||
| 6 | 5.75/9.625 Pwr | 6.55/10.175 Pwr | 7.35/10.725 Pwr | 8.15/11.275 Pwr | 8.95/11.825 Pwr | 9.35/12.1 Pwr | 8.8164/11.73315 Pwr | 9.6164/12.28315 Pwr | 10.4164/12.83315 Pwr | |||
| 5 | 6.125/10.5 Pwr | 6.975/11.1 Pwr | 7.825/11.7 Pwr | 8.675/12.3 Pwr | 9.525/12.9 Pwr | 9.95/13.2 Pwr | 9.38305/12.7998 Pwr | 10.23305/13.3998 Pwr | 11.08305/13.9998 Pwr | |||
| 4 | 6.5/11.375 Pwr | 7.4/12.025 Pwr | 8.3/12.675 Pwr | 9.2/13.325 Pwr | 10.1/13.975 Pwr | 10.55/14.3 Pwr | 9.9497/13.86645 Pwr | 10.8497/14.51645 Pwr | 11.7497/15.16645 Pwr | |||
| 3 | 6.875/12.25 Pwr | 7.825/12.95 Pwr | 8.775/13.65 Pwr | 9.725/14.35 Pwr | 10.675/15.05 Pwr | 11.15/15.4 Pwr | 10.51635/14.9331 Pwr | 11.46635/15.6331 Pwr | 12.41635/16.3331 Pwr | |||
| 2 | 7.25/13.125 Pwr | 8.25/13.875 Pwr | 9.25/14.625 Pwr | 10.25/15.375 Pwr | 11.25/16.125 Pwr | 11.75/16.5 Pwr | 11.083/15.99975 Pwr | 12.083/16.74975 Pwr | 13.083/17.49975 Pwr |
My conclusions remain unchanged. It's not worth taking the power attack feats when you can instead raise the attribute.
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Two feats are not a huge cost for a Fighter. However, SS + Archery Style is still rather potent, and leaves room for resilient (Wis) etc.
We're also only focusing on damage here, but even without the -5/+10 mechanic Sharpshooter is a very good feat and can lead to some game breaking scenarios, such as a Wood Elf Fighter/Rogue being able to solo the Tarrasque etc.
We're also only focusing on damage here, but even without the -5/+10 mechanic Sharpshooter is a very good feat and can lead to some game breaking scenarios, such as a Wood Elf Fighter/Rogue being able to solo the Tarrasque etc.
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Aramis, I'm fairly certain your analysis is wrong for a number of reasons.
Check out this spreadsheet here to see why:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZGd7HwD1dWSzYqVx4PQqw9dl9YYzKxRv7YJtOojkDE/edit?usp=sharing
Basically, even without smart play, teamwork, or additional accuracy bonuses, GWM or SS are almost always worthwhile. They become exponentially more powerful with players who have any grasp on the combat mechanics of 5e at all.
Check out this spreadsheet here to see why:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZGd7HwD1dWSzYqVx4PQqw9dl9YYzKxRv7YJtOojkDE/edit?usp=sharing
Basically, even without smart play, teamwork, or additional accuracy bonuses, GWM or SS are almost always worthwhile. They become exponentially more powerful with players who have any grasp on the combat mechanics of 5e at all.
That's not anyone's argument. Max the attribute and then take Power Attack if you're in a group that doesn't play many clerics or provide buffs that eliminate the penalty. I can't worry about groups that don't know how to maximize their capabilities. I have to worry about a group that does know how.
You must play with people that don't optimize much at all to miss out on bless. We try to have it every group. If we were at your table, you would know what I was talking about.
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