D&D 5E Curse of Strahd (and limitations on 1st level play)

Those were the twig blights that were thrown at the 5th level party at the Winery in Curse of Strahd. Going from the book, the Winery was intended for a 5th level party. [Probably could've been handled by a 2nd level one, IMO.]

The thing that scares me about throwing a young red dragon (or other CR 10s) against the party, is that they have special attacks that can wipe out many characters. The cone attack could likely hit over half the party. 56 damage is enough to drop any of them. If the dragon gets a second breath weapon, the party is literally toast.
It's not necessarily the AC or HP or attack bonus that bothers me, it's the special attacks.
I can't comment on the Froghemoth or Stone Giant you shared because I don't have access on D&D Beyond, but I'm guessing that they are going to be similar - the baseline monster is okay for the group, but the special powers make them more appropriate for high level groups.
And if I just "take away the special attacks" - then I have a boring, static fight with a slog through a bag of hit points.

Fortunately, we're taking next Sunday off for Mother's Day, so I have a little more time than usual to try to get this figured out.

One thing to keep in mind. Don't sweat the fact that even MOST combat encounters are too easy. (ninja'd by @dave2008 when I stepped away from computer!)

Most encounters are just set pieces for the PCs to shine, absorb the flavor of the setting etc. They're not there to slaugher the PCs.

Plus it creates a nice contrast for when the fights are TRULY difficult.
 

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This is my second time running Curse of Strahd. With this group, I tried to emphasize that Barovia was a scary place in an attempt to get the most out of the theme.
It's backfired.
The group is running away from every challenge, accomplishing no story progress, defeating no threats, etc. I was going to keep up with XP behind the screen to have an idea of when to advance their levels (along with milestone). In three sessions, they've earned 80 XP.
They ran away from the kids from the Death House without going in.
It's like they're going to be perpetually stuck at 1st level. As they've fled deeper into Barovia, they are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy: every encounter around them is too strong.
What's a DM to do?
Big set piece with spiders. And mud. Difficult terrain and webs. Let them try to run from that. Lots of treasure in webs to give them a taste of the sweet stuff. And a ghost. The ghosts tells them to find his hat. The hat is up a tree. There are spiders up the tree. And webs.
 

Those were the twig blights that were thrown at the 5th level party at the Winery in Curse of Strahd. Going from the book, the Winery was intended for a 5th level party. [Probably could've been handled by a 2nd level one, IMO.]
But they were intended as an easy encounter for a 5th level group. So this gets me back to: what are your expectations? It seemed like you wanted this fight to be more challenging than it was intended to be. However, you didn't change it. Why not? If you wanted more of a challenge then the encounter is designed to provide, why not make it tougher?
The thing that scares me about throwing a young red dragon (or other CR 10s) against the party, is that they have special attacks that can wipe out many characters. The cone attack could likely hit over half the party. 56 damage is enough to drop any of them. If the dragon gets a second breath weapon, the party is literally toast.
Dragons are not a good example in general because, IIRC, they tend to be under rated on their CR. I don't know fi that holds true for young dragons, but it does for ancient ones (typically the only dragons I use). I see don't have DnD Beyond, but I assume you have access to the MM and Basic Rules. Look at a:
Aboleth
Death Slaad
Guardian Naga
Stone Golem

These all have similar bonuses and a less devastating special attack or spells.

However, you were talking about multiple weak threats not one big threat. If you went with (2) CR 7 foes it would have less focused damage and special attacks and give a similar challenge. The issue is the blights are CR 1/8. That is likely never going to be what I consider a "challenge"

It's not necessarily the AC or HP or attack bonus that bothers me, it's the special attacks.
I can't comment on the Froghemoth or Stone Giant you shared because I don't have access on D&D Beyond, but I'm guessing that they are going to be similar - the baseline monster is okay for the group, but the special powers make them more appropriate for high level groups.
I the stone giant can petrify and the froghemoth can swallow IIRC. Neither of which is as whole party threatening than the dragon breath. I think you are too concerned about special abilities personally. Yes they can be an issue if they come up every encounter, but that shouldn't be the case IMO. Also, if you just use (2) CR 7 or (4) CR 5 monsters you are in a similar challenge, but with less potentially dangerous special attacks (lower save DC at least).

And if I just "take away the special attacks" - then I have a boring, static fight with a slog through a bag of hit points.
I don't find that to be the case. I personally don't need an elaborate stat block to make an interesting monster. TBH, they are sometimes a hinderance at the table. It is how you play it, not what is written IMO anyway. I play my monsters more fast and loose and let them do what makes sense. The damage and difficulty guidelines in the DMG are your friend hear and allow me to improv while staying with the game's expectations.
Fortunately, we're taking next Sunday off for Mother's Day, so I have a little more time than usual to try to get this figured out.
Have you looked at any of the enhancing XYZ threads? Not sure if there is a Curse one or not, but I did find this:

Fleshing out Curse of Strahd: A full guide to running the campaign for new and experienced DMs - The Basics

and this:

10 Ways to Improve Curse of Strahd
 
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There's some level of nuance.
  • For example, the cleric did nothing but cast sacred flame for the whole day. There were no challenges worth spending a spell slot on. She didn't even need to heal anybody because no one took damage or was in any danger for the entire adventuring day.
  • The players were getting bored, distracted. It was frustrating to me when they'd just look at each other and make silly noises. There was no excitement for the game, because there were no stakes.
  • The rogue gets ahead of the party to sneak attack. There's no reason not to do so, because none of the enemies can really threaten her. Thus there's no interesting decision to be made regarding "do I put myself in danger to deal more damage?" No, I just get to deal more damage.
  • The game feels like a speed run through a video game on God Mode. I don't feel like the best gaming memories are made in that environment.
  • Not every fight, but SOME fights should be challenging.
I can't speak for published adventures really, but this seems like an easy fix. Now, you have some time to prep before the next session so take a look at some of the potential encounters. Are they a threat to your group (deadly or above)? Do you want them to be? If you do, what can you do to make them a threat? There are lots of methods to handle this:
  • Add monsters
  • Replace monsters with stronger monsters
  • Enhance the monsters
How much you modify depends on how much of and what kind of challenge you want them to have. Since your group has a cleric, I wouldn't worry to much about hitting them hard. They can take it.

Good luck!

PS - You might want to post the specifics of the encounters and PCs here. Some people are really good at giving creative solutions to enhance an encounter.
 
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Shouldn't really need that here. Lot's of little wooden guys running around? That's obvious fireball bait. The party blow themselves up.
Oh no, I was referring to my Divinity: Original Sin experiences, where the enemy always has a random item to screw up your battle strategies, lol.
 

It probably seems that way unless someone reads all of my posts in chronological order.
The typical chain of events usually goes this way...

1) 1st level starts too hard. I rush the party to 2nd level. It's okay for one level.
1st level is a bit squishy, getting them to 2nd fast is generally advisable and not a problem

2) By around 3rd level, it gets too difficult to challenge the group with encounters that aren't way overpowered. (I want to challenge them, not kill them). I come to this community for advice. [We'll call this the Subclass adjustment period.]
that should not be possible, that early on the CR and guidelines for encounter building work pretty well for most people from what I have heard

You can even do it easier, see e.g.



3) It gets good for a few sessions, maybe from levels 3-5 with those adjustments.
4) The party gets too powerful again. [We'll call this the Fireball adjustment period.]
yes, jumping to 3rd level spells / 2nd tier is a noticeable difference

5) Trying to make adjustments from Step 3, I overdo it, and I get a TPK.
make adjustments in smaller increments
 

@Retreater, I'm going to summon @Quickleaf here because I believe they had a really simple rule-of-thumb for encounter building that I think could help you. Unfortunately I couldn't find the post and I don't remember it exactly.

However it had to do with comparing the monster damage to PCs hit points. Basically you just need to know if a monster can one shot a PC. Hopefully Quickleaf knows what I am talking about and can give you a better answer!
Yes, that's right, IIRC I offered the hack I've been using for years when we were discussing your plans for Project Monsters by Level.

Those were the twig blights that were thrown at the 5th level party at the Winery in Curse of Strahd. Going from the book, the Winery was intended for a 5th level party. [Probably could've been handled by a 2nd level one, IMO.]

The thing that scares me about throwing a young red dragon (or other CR 10s) against the party, is that they have special attacks that can wipe out many characters. The cone attack could likely hit over half the party. 56 damage is enough to drop any of them. If the dragon gets a second breath weapon, the party is literally toast.
It's not necessarily the AC or HP or attack bonus that bothers me, it's the special attacks.
I can't comment on the Froghemoth or Stone Giant you shared because I don't have access on D&D Beyond, but I'm guessing that they are going to be similar - the baseline monster is okay for the group, but the special powers make them more appropriate for high level groups.
And if I just "take away the special attacks" - then I have a boring, static fight with a slog through a bag of hit points.

Fortunately, we're taking next Sunday off for Mother's Day, so I have a little more time than usual to try to get this figured out.
Hey Retreater, you're definitely looking at the right issue (56 damage from breath weapon) in considering using a Young Red Dragon. I know i'm jumping in mid-stream to your post, but I'll offer my general guidelines... Of course the devil's in the details, so if you're working on a specific encounter that you want feedback on, mention me and I'll get into the weeds with you...

OK, my (stupidly simply) general guidelines for prepping encounters:

First, I throw out all the encounter guidelines from the DMG or XGtE, then I aim to make the encounter really challenging and interesting, basically doing what I want (there's "feel" that is learned here - which is great to get feedback from other GMs when developing that "feel", i certainly sought a bunch of feedback in my learning process).

Then I use 4 questions as my Upper Bounding Limit of difficulty – these are the red/yellow flags that indicate I'm getting into "This is probably too hard for the PCs right now... without some careful artful GM twists to the overall encounter design (e.g. the 5th PCs all get a blessing of fire resistance and a ballistae with a rope-harpoon prior to their young red dragon hunt)."

For these questions, you need to have a sense of your party's average max HP. I typically use a d8 HD and +1 Con mod for these assumptions (e.g. 5th level I would assume PCs have an average of ~33 hit points), but use whatever assumptions make sense for your group.

edit: For simplicity these questions assume Average Damage from a monster, but I'm also using my "GM sense" for how close to the edge of, say, negative max HP the Average Damage goes, and I allow myself some wiggle room to bring my instinct into the scenario. This is not about dogmatic maths. Rather it's a very human system that's meant for the GM drawing on their big brain to assess multiple variables at once.

1) Can the monster(s) outright kill a single fresh PC (i.e. reduce them to negative max HP) in one turn? If "yes" that's a red flag.

2) Can the monster(s) knock unconscious an entire fresh party of PCs in one turn? If "yes" that's a red flag.

3) Is the monster(s) immune to the vast majority of damage the PCs can dish out? If "yes" that's a red flag.

4) Does the monster(s) circumvent HP – e.g. a banshee, shadow, or intellect devourer? If "yes" that's a yellow flag.

If I answer "yes" to any of these questions, that's when I'll usually start down-tuning or sometimes creatively modifying an encounter to be more manageable for the PCs.

There are other considerations (e.g. mitigating stun-locking of a boss, if a PC gets banished/mazed presenting discoveries they can have that make that more gameable/playable, making poison more of a decision point, designing a dungeon with an eye toward the Daily XP Budget, etc), but those are all fine-tuning or house-ruling. What I've presented above is the core of what I do.
 
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1) Can the monster(s) outright kill a single fresh PC (i.e. reduce them to negative max HP) in one turn? If "yes" that's a red flag.

2) Can the monster(s) knock unconscious an entire fresh party of PCs in one turn? If "yes" that's a red flag.

3) Is the monster(s) immune to the vast majority of damage the PCs can dish out? If "yes" that's a red flag.

4) Does the monster(s) circumvent HP – e.g. a banshee, shadow, or intellect devourer? If "yes" that's a yellow flag.

If I answer "yes" to any of these questions, that's when I'll usually start down-tuning or sometimes creatively modifying an encounter to be more manageable for the PCs.

Yes, these are what I was looking for - thank you!

@Retreater I think this is a great way to approach encounters. If you don't hit one of these flags, your OK. If things are to easy, dial things up until just below one these metrics and you should be good to go.
 


So we're averaging a level of experience per 4-hour session. Upon reaching 5th level, the party of 5 characters steamrolled through the Winery.
Don’t you adjust the encounters on the fly? That keeps it challenging but not too close to an unwanted un dramatic death.
 

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