Curse that charisma!

[Particle_Man]

I think intimidate has a place, and its a good skill for pcs to invest in, but that doesn't mean I have to accept the rules as written if it leads to the captain of the guard taking an active role in his masters assassination and continueing his helpful activities well after the threatening gentleman has moved on.

Kahuna Burger

Maybe some wiggle room can be found in the idea that helpful behaviour is what is needed to "take risks" and that could mean more than risking one's life. Since a successful intimidate only gets one friendly (not helpful) behaviour, perhaps the guard will not want to risk his reputation as a honorable person, as a guard captain, etc. (Who would hire him if he let his boss get whacked, never mind led the assassin to the boss?) So such a guard might not lead the assassin to the guard's bedchamber or give him the keys, but might be scared enough to let the assassin go (as in away, not as in to the bedchamber) without raising an alarm (Saving Private Ryan had a good scene like this, where the Nazi basically intimidated the nerd-translator soldier into not fighting him). Thus the guard does not risk as much to life or rep. (he can lie and simply say he found his fellow guard dead and chased the assassin away but could not catch him). But if forced to fight, the guard will fight (but then might end up shaken in the next round, as per the rules).

Or all smart merchants that can will hire guards (or at least guard captains) that have enough levels of paladin to be absolutely immune to fear (and hence intimidate).

Just my take on it.

 

[Epametheus]

Saying that the PC will basically never be able to Intimidate the Captain seems unreasonably harsh.

I never said that the captain can't be intimidated, but if the player thinks that an Intimidate check should force the captain to betray his master, then the player is grossly overestimating what Intimidate can do. Intimidate scares people; it's not a freaking Dominate spell.

 

[DragonOfIntellect]

After all, this is D&D, and no skill will ever match a spell that serves the same purpose....

 

[Pielorinho]

I do agree that the intimidate rules are overly restrictive to the DM; however, I assume that my DMs will bend them sensibly via the lovely rules technique of applying circumstance modifiers.

For example, Bob the assassin is trying to break into Mang the Mighty's fortress in order to assassinate him. He comes across Ted the Toady, and hisses, "Speak a word of my passage and feel my steel in your gut, maggot!"

Normally, this is a DC 25 Intimidate check (I won't crunch numbers -- just go with it for now). However, the DM already knows that Ted the Toady is ambitious, and figures that Mang's death can only further Ted's career goals. The intimidate check in this case, unbeknownst to Bob, represents Ted's evalution of whether Bob the assassin is really all that, really good enough to off Mang. The DM applies a +4 circumstance bonus to this check to represent Ted's hope; even though Ted is relatively powerful and wise, circumstances make it an easy check. Ted simpers, bows, and lets Bob pass unmolested, and indeed will go out of his way to help Bob effect the assassination if he later realizes that Bob needs help.

Later, Bob sneaks into his preferred kill-spot -- the men's room. On his way in, he passes Gomez the Goon, a low-level guard just coming out and buttoning his pants. Bob flashes steel at the peon and says, "Make a noise, and I'll wear your guts for my garters!"

Normally, this is a DC 15 Intimidate check. However, the DM has decided that Mang rescued Gomez from a life of misery and wretchedness and brought him into a place where he's warm and receives three hot meals a day; what's more, he's allowed Gomez to move his whole family into the palace. Gomez would gladly give his life for his boss. So the DM assigns a +6 circumstance penalty on this check, giving a final DC of 21. What's more, a success only determines the number of rounds for which Gomez is terrified into inaction: if Bob makes a 27 on his roll, then Gomez wets his pants for six rounds, at the end of which he gathers his courage and sounds the alarm.

The intimidate mechanic is a great starting point for a skill that was previously far too vague; the DM needs to run with it, however.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

I never said that the captain can't be intimidated, but if the player thinks that an Intimidate check should force the captain to betray his master, then the player is grossly overestimating what Intimidate can do. Intimidate scares people; it's not a freaking Dominate spell.

Which is why it can't be used from range and you can't know that it works.

Synopsis: Adding a difficlty modifier based off of the task asked helps with the problem of ridiculous requests. More rambling about the results of quantifying a skill.

Now, I agree that intimidating the loyal captian of the guard (loyal? Did we specify that anywhere? Maybe he's a dupicitious bastard) should be hard. I'd assign a +10 or so modifier to it (off the cuff) for being so against his character. If they're equal level, and have no modifiers to the roll, and the assassin has max ranks, that puts him down by seven (ranks vs level+10) for a 16 or better required to pull that off. If the guard captian has a positive will save, a wisdom bonus or other benifits against fear, it will go a bit better for him. Of course, it's also possible that there are some synergy or stat bonuses available to the assassin, so let's up the DC modifier up to a +15. Thus, with the assassin being aproximately equal in level to the guard captian, he'll need to roll (not get, just the D20 roll) a 21. Thus, without burning a feat, an item to help out, or a charisma bonus, the assassin can't make it happen. However, if the assassin is an intimidation specialist, Then he'll have a small chance (20-30%), assuming that the guard captian isn't specialized against that sort of thing. That feels about right to me. The assassin would be much better off killing the guard captian, and trying to scare the serving maid into giving him the same info.

So, all in all, I agree with you Kahuna, when you say that there needs to be a modifier to the check for the difficulty of the intimidation. Otherwise it is too easy. What do you consider a good set of logical bounds for the skill, and what should be easy, difficult, and near impossible?

One other question: Given the situaiton where the assassin has his sword to the Guard Captian's throat, and makes the same threat. From a logical/character standpoint, what do you see the guard doing? There's a wide array of options, everywhere from the righteous "Then kill me, dog, for I will never aid such as you." to the act of buying time, to the cowering "Please sir, don't kill me, I just work here!" (though the last seems unlikely for the freaking captian). I'm asking because the way to get a set of options for the skill that works (venturing into house rules now, but oh well) is to consider the range taht we'd like, and then finding the best way to match that to the system.

This whole thread reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend while we were playing second edition. The end line of consiquence was that a fighter will be able to sneak across a field better than a thief will, because the theif only has a 15% move silently skill. The fighter is bound by his actions and what the DM's thinking. The thief has this 15% chance of success holding him down. It's the same thing when you add the intimidate skill. Before that, you'd just do what felt right. Now that there's a skill involved, there are all these numbers to be responsible for. Sure the dwarf swinging the axe around is intimidating. But he doesn't have ranks in the appropriate skill.

Sometimes I wonder if it's a gain or a loss.

Anyway, looking forward to more responses, and thanks for helping me continue to figure out how I'd use the intimidate skill.

 

[Parlan]

I never said that the captain can't be intimidated, but if the player thinks that an Intimidate check should force the captain to betray his master, then the player is grossly overestimating what Intimidate can do. Intimidate scares people; it's not a freaking Dominate spell.

[sees hot stove... cannot... resist... must... touch!]

I'm curious, why is it so unrealistic just because he's the captain?

Assassin: [super scary voice] "Where's the king?!"

Captain: [realizes he's alone with a trained killer... has a bum knee and just
had five glasses of wine at dinner...thinks about his wife and 12
kids crying at his funeral]
"Uhh... ..that way!"
[points upstairs to his left]

Seems pretty "realistic" to me. Sure the captain will probably regret it later, but in that split second, he was just too terrified to resist the order.

And in the potential outcomes you suggested in your previous posts, it certainly seemed like the BEST result was a limited failure. If you give a +2 or +4 bonus to the Captain's attempt to resist and he STILL fails, it seems like he should at least point the right direction out in a fit of weakness.

The captain will probably recover and sound the alarm in a minute or so, and the Assassin had better be done by then...

Unless you want/expect all Assassins to just cast Dominate?

 

[Pielorinho]

Captain: [realizes he's alone with a trained killer... has a bum knee and just
had five glasses of wine at dinner...thinks about his wife and 12
kids crying at his funeral]
"Uhh... ..that way!"
[points upstairs to his left]

Seems pretty "realistic" to me.

I agree -- but it's also realistic for the captain of the guard to be a healthy single teetotaller fanatic, especially in a meritocracy. Intimidate should be a guideline, but it shouldn't be the ne plus ultra of interacting with NPCs on the opposing team.

For myself, generally I try to have a very rough outline of an NPC's personality by the time I open my mouth to speak as the NPC. I may be playing a rich incompetent noble who's best handled through "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!" squawky intimidation and who is easily bowled over by it; I may be playing an outwardly meek but inwardly shrewd midlevel officer who responds terribly to intimidate attempts. Part of my fun is getting to sketch out these different people; part of the fun for the players is figuring out how best to get what they want. They snicker delightedly when their absurd intimidations against the noble work; they nod in satisfaction when their respectful approach to the midlevel officer earns them a competent ally.

Dicewise, I'd represent all this through circumstance penalties and modifiers.
Daniel

 

[Epametheus]

Unless you want/expect all Assassins to just cast Dominate?

I expect assassins to have better sense than to demand directions from the captain of the guard.

Assuming that the captain is loyal and would actually do his job, an assassin intimidating the guard captain to buy some time is quite reasonable. An assassin trying to intimidate the captain into assisting with his mission is really pushing it, though.

 

[Pielorinho]

Epametheus, this is a good point, and is by extension why spy agencies looked for disaffected enemy spies to turn double-agent, instead of trying to get the enemy's top idealogues to go rogue. Although that's more a use of diplomacy than intimidate (at least at first), the same principal applies: folks who are loyal are by definition a lot less likely to betray their masters than folks who are not loyal.

Loyalty is not quantified in D&D, thank goodness; since Intimidate is, however, the DM has got to step in with some circumstance modifiers.

Daniel

 

[Kahuna Burger]

So, all in all, I agree with you Kahuna, when you say that there needs to be a modifier to the check for the difficulty of the intimidation. Otherwise it is too easy. What do you consider a good set of logical bounds for the skill, and what should be easy, difficult, and near impossible?

well, like I said before, I think the bluf rules would be a good place to start (adapted, of course) so, from the srd:
Bluff Examples
Example Circumstances Sense Motive Modifier
The target wants to believe you. –5
The bluff is believable and doesn’t affect the target much. +0
The bluff is a little hard to believe or puts the target at some risk. +5
The bluff is hard to believe or puts the target at significant risk. +10
The bluff is way out there, almost too incredible to consider. +20


Adapted directly to intimidate, it miaght read:

intimidate Examples
Example Circumstances DC modifier Modifier
The target would be inclined to do so anyway. –5
The order is one of inaction and/or doesn’t seem significant. +0
The order contridicts prior orders or duty or puts the target at some risk. +5
The order clearly betrays an important prior loyalty or puts the target at significant risk. +10
The order is an active betrayal of the tagets most deeply held beliefs or loyalties, almost too incredible to consider. +20

So if the intimidate check is to get into the queen's audience chamber, when she already left orders you were to be admitted, its -5 to the dc. There is still a chance of failure because no one likes to be bullied into something, and the guard might find an excuse of protocol to delay your entrance. If its to just stay still, be quiet or give the character access to a seemingly unimportant room, and the target is not aware of any untoward circumstances (his buddy's dead body for instance) its a straight check. Assigning the specific modifiers beyond that is obviously something of a judgement call, but I'd say the captain of the gaurd example falls between +10 and +20 depending on the DM's assignment of loyalty (is this a very important job, or the point of his existance?) For the serving girl its likely to be 0 to +5, on the lower side if he just asks for directions rather than her participation. On the other hand, other circumstance modifiers and level differences are going to be playing heavily into his favor on the serving girl.

One other point is that intimidate will not always be the best skill to use. In the first example, diplomacy will work on some unfriendly guards and have almost no chance of backfiring on those inclined to do what you want anyway. Bluffing a guard into believing you have cast a spell to kill him if he makes a sound before you leave the castle may be more effective than intimidating him into not raising the alarm even when you are out of sight. With the official modifiers (or lack thereof) and length of result, indimidate becomes the better option for too much of the time, imho.

Kahuna Burger