Curse that charisma!

[ThoughtBubble]

In addition to anything else, here we run into a problem with resolving intimidate. Say the captain of the guard completely believes his intent, and his ability to kill him if he doesn't do what he says. Does it automaticly follow that he does what he says? He is the captain of the guard after all. He has obtained this position not just by skill or senority, but by dedication and risking his life many times. Confronted with an assassin in his master's castle and the choice between going along and maybe living, and opposing and definitly dying, who is really to say that he will go along? (certainly if he was a PC and the DM says 'and you show him to the chambers' the player could rightly pitch a fit.) It may well be the completion of his life's work to raise the alarm and die in this very fashion.

I'm glad you asked actually. Because this gets into the point I was trying to get across. See, regardless of the intimidate roll the captian can be scared. I'm scared of spiders, sometimes I muster up the courage to hit them with a shoe, other times I run out of the room and watch TV for an hour. When I hit them with a shoe, I'm still scared though.

Lets assume that the captian does believe the assassin's intent and ability to kill him. On a failed intimidate roll (on the part of the assassin) the guard doesn't comply. Likely, he draws his sword and shouts for the rest of the house guard, dieing nobly but bringing down justice on the killer. On a successful intimidate roll, the captian's will falters, and he just can't get himself to cross the assassin. The fact that the captian isn't likely to do so would be represented by a high DC.

PC's are, if I recall correctly, immune to the effects of intimidate. And, to use your analogy, put the player as the assassin. Say they rolled a ridiculously high intimidate check. How would your player feel if the guard didn't comply?

To tie this back in, this may well be where the cha vs skill ballance of the intimidate becomes useful, but I'm unsure. Mostly, this just caused another intimidate related thought in my mind, which is not well addressed in the rules - So you're intimidated, what now? My best guess is that in cases like this we should take a page from the bluff rules and introduce situational modifiers based on how outside of acceptable the intimidate 'request' is.

Kahuna Burger

After looking up the 3.5 version of the skill I have to agree. I much prefer the 3.0 printing, where it was "typically 10+the target's Hit Dice."

 

[Epametheus]

As for the assassin example, a reasonable resolution might be something like (keep in mind that if the assassin has run into the freaking captain of the guard, then he's seriously compromised his mission):

Failure: The captain raises the alarm and engages the assassin in personal combat, either believing that he can hold his own, or hoping to pin the assassin down long enough for reinforcements to come in and finish off the intruder.

Close success: the captain hesitates, unsure if this is how he really wants to die. May give the assassin the option to withdraw, but won't abondon his post. The benefit of a success will wither away quickly if it becomes clear that the captain can overpower the assassin in straight combat.

Success: the captain panics and probably flees, raising the alarm. The assassin has bought himself some time by chasing the captain off, and would be well advised to withdraw.

Conclusion: poison or using UMD to cast Silence is probably far, far more effective than trying to intimidate the best warrior in the castle.

10 + HD really seems too easy for an intimidate DC. I'd do 10 + HD + Str or Cha mod (whichever is better; people who are strong of mind and/or body are harder to push around) as the check DC. DC 15 to intimidate an Ogre Mage is rather low, but DC 22 or so to intimidate one seems a bit more appropriate.

Is it even possible to intimidate creatures that are immune to fear (such as undead and paladins)?

 

[shilsen]

10 + HD really seems too easy for an intimidate DC. I'd do 10 + HD + Str or Cha mod (whichever is better; people who are strong of mind and/or body are harder to push around) as the check DC. DC 15 to intimidate an Ogre Mage is rather low, but DC 22 or so to intimidate one seems a bit more appropriate.

Is it even possible to intimidate creatures that are immune to fear (such as undead and paladins)?

It's not just 10 + HD. It's 10 + HD + Wis bonus (if any) + bonus on saves vs. fear. So the ogre mage in your example will be DC 17, which is a little (admittedly not much) tougher to do.

As for your second question, since the intimidate check mentions the bonus on saves vs. fear, I'd say that creatures immune to fear can't be intimidated. If a paladin is immune to a great wyrm red dragon's fear aura, then it should be immune to an intimidate check by Bob the bouncer.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Is it even possible to intimidate creatures that are immune to fear (such as undead and paladins)?

I don't believe so. You add bonuses to fear saves to intimidate DC's. However, notice the typically. In 3.5 it gives a distinct set (I believe 10+HD+ size difference + fear bonuses). And I prefer the 3.0 set because the typically is justification to set it to whatever seems appropriate without invoking the 'DM is always right' law, whereas the 3.5 srd states it as a definate.

Now, on to the rest of the post. The captian of the guard should be a tough guy to crack. He should not break under pressure like the serving maid. He would not willingly neglect his duty to help someone evil.

I think you favor the guard too heavily though. The best possible success you're allowing is still a failure (even in the best situation the guard doesn't show him to master chen's quarters). This has, essentially, made the intimidate skill useless. Or, more accurately, any creature the DM chooses is rendered immune to that skill. As a player, I'd rather have someone have a boosted DC vs intimidate than I would simply have the skill not work. Especially since, pretening I'm the player of the assassin, I tried to do something other than stabbing everyone who came into view.

Does the situation change if the assassin isn't some no name assassin but Kheras Darkblade, the best assassin in all the northern kingdoms, who has been practicing his trade for over 100 years and has eyes reported to 'chill the dead' and those who have seen him and lived have been haunted by his image till death? Does it change if the guard captian is a 4th level warrior and the assassin is 14th level? Mostly, I'm trying to ask if someone has the best warrior in the castle outclassed, then shuouldn't he be able to succeed?

The intimidate skill isn't about making someone scared. It's using fear to make someone do what you want. And if it can't do that, consider taking it out of the game so no one wastes time or energy with it. On a somewhat related note, I think this is the problem for including rules for interaction in the game. Either you risk unsatisfying results or making the opertunity cost too great. I'll drop this line here, since it feels like we're on opposing sides of the "diplomacy check vs. acting it out" arguement. And we all know that one never gets resolved.

Here's how I would handle the assassin's rolls (keep in mind I'd give the GC some boosts to his DC):

Mass failure: The guard captian pretends to be intimidated (bluff vs sense motive) while actually leading the assassin into a worse area (nearer to more guards on duty, or into a cul-de-sac) before calling for help.

Failure: The guard captian calls for help.

Marginal Success: The guard captian will lead the assassin to Master Chen's chambers. Any moment the assassin is distracted, however, risks the guard captian regaining his nerve and acting normally. This will be resolved by another intimidate check. There will be an indication of this check happening(glancing around) and if the player renews their intimidation ("I know what you're thinking. Don't try it.") they have an additional bonus to the roll. Additional checks will happen as detailed below.

Success: The guard captian will lead the assassin to Master Chen's chambers. At any time circumsances change another intimidate check needs to be made. Running into another guard and entering Master Chen's quarters are two examples of situational changes.

 

[Epametheus]

If the assassin in question outclasses the castle guards that badly, he should be able to walk in, kill Master Chen, and leave without ever being noticed. I am being a bit harsh on the assassin, but if he's already been noticed by a generic guard, had to kill one of them and has been discovered before he could cover up his presence, then his mission has already gone horribly wrong; he's lucky to have time to make an intimidate check before the hue & cry can be raised.

However, if he just killed the captain of the guards, and is now informing a lesser guard "show me to Master Chen's quarters, or you and everyone else in this castle dies," then we've got a whole 'nother ballgame.

 

[Parlan]

I am being a bit harsh on the assassin, but if he's already been noticed by a generic guard, had to kill one of them and has been discovered before he could cover up his presence, then his mission has already gone horribly wrong; he's lucky to have time to make an intimidate check before the hue & cry can be raised.

It sounds like you want to use the Intim rules to punish the assassin for getting discovered.

I don t see the connection though. Yeah, the Assassin screwed up somehow and got caught by the Captain. So he s trying to fix the situation by applying another skill. This sort of thinking should be rewarded in my book.

In any case, I don t see why that should influence the Intim outcome. If the Assassin makes the Intimidate check, he should be able to control (ie give simple orders to) the Captain of the Guards for a couple of rounds or so. Otherwise, what good is investing in the skill?

If you think the DC is too easily beaten, then slap on a +2 situational bonus for the Captain’s “devotion to duty”. If you think this particular Captain is REALLY hardened to this kind of thing, then give him another +2 bonus or a magic item.

If the PC STILL makes the check, then you should give him the benefits, he s just that good/lucky.

Saying that the PC will basically never be able to Intimidate the Captain seems unreasonably harsh.

 

[Particle_Man]

For intimidate, it says that a success will get the victim to "chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate on one's behalf". So in the assassin/guard example, I could see an intimidate success making the guard "spilling the beans" on where the bedchamber is, give up his keys, etc. As for accompanying the assassin, that comes down to whether you consider that "limited help". But the guard would not cross the line to helpful, which includes "taking risks to aid you" (so would not fight other guards, or likely try to sneak past them, etc. (too risky - might as well fight the assassin then)).

As for what counts as "limited help" (how limited?), without "taking risks" (what level of risk? Any level of risk? More risk than fighting the assassin, objectively considered?), I guess that would be the DM's call.

 

[DarkMaster]

A low Cha character is weak-willed, unsure and probably shy. Such behaviour would not really be appropriate in most cases, unless at least some ranks in intimidate are learned, I suppose.

Bye
Thanee

edit: not even shy, he just things he knows it all and will try to convert everybody and he becomes a real pain in the neck. Take for example the smurf with glasses, High Int, High WIS, very low CHA, nobody can make him change his mind, he his not shy at all(always trying to give his oppinion) but nobody can stand him.


Don't agree maybe shy, but it has nothing to do with will power, low charisma character do not project their image well, but may be very sure of themselves and very strong willed, Take the Cleric with WIS20 and CHA 8, he is sure that his faith is the right way to go and cannot be convinced of anything he doesn't want his only problem is that he cannot influence other around, people get bored quickly when he tries to sermon them, he has very bad manner, but don't try to convert him to another faith or other way of life you will never be able, That is strong will power.

Take my example of the succubus trying to seduce the sorcerer or the cleric. It just make sense that the cleric will resist much more than the sorcerer.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

For intimidate, it says that a success will get the victim to "chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate on one's behalf".

part of the problem is that I consider this to be way too much, too easy. Its practically a charm person spell, with far too low a threshold for success. Considering that this behavior by the books continues indefinitly as long as the intimidator is nearby and for several minutes thereafter, it becomes perposterous.

I think intimidate has a place, and its a good skill for pcs to invest in, but that doesn't mean I have to accept the rules as written if it leads to the captain of the guard taking an active role in his masters assassination and continueing his helpful activities well after the threatening gentleman has moved on.

Specific things I can accept intimidate for fit more into a house rules forum, But I think indimidate under most circumstances should lead to an immediate action or cessation of action (don't scream, give me the key, let him out, stay still, etc) and heavy circumstance modifiers (again, more similar to the bluff rules than a mere +2 against helping kill your leader) should apply to the order given. Each new action or passage of time would require a new intimidate check, and an order meant to be fullfilled when the intimidator is no longer present would require a heavy increase to the DC and possibly a synergistic bluff check.

But like I said, this is more house rules, though I guess this thread has been walking the line since inception.

Kahuna Burger

 

[shilsen]

Take for example the smurf with glasses, High Int, High WIS, very low CHA, nobody can make him change his mind, he his not shy at all(always trying to give his oppinion) but nobody can stand him.

Aw, come on! What did Hyp ever do to you ?