D&D General D&D 2024 does not deserve to succeed

[Stormonu]

I went in with an open mind. But by time I got to the end of the Kickstarter video, I had lost track of which points did what and how often.

I mean, what's the point?

Yeah, I looked over the DC20 PDF and it's just another 5E Fantasy Heartbreaker. If I'm going to ditch Hasbro/WotC, I'm waltzing either over to DragonBane or Savage Worlds. As much as I like Paizo, PF2 isn't for me (and there's no way in hell I'm going back to 3E), and I'd rather do OSE or flat go back to 2E if I want to stick with some sort of D&D.

 

[Corinnguard]

If I'm going to ditch Hasbro/WotC

This needs to be its' own thread. If I was going to ditch Hasbro/WoTc, I would go to either PF1 or Level Up. PF1 because I have collected its' books and have wanted to give a try. Level Up because I helped back it and because there is so much that I happen to like about it.

 

[Zuranthium]

I'm just plain uninterested in another fantasy TTRPG. I'm already invested in D&D

That's not an argument of quality at all. Just an admission of wanting to go with the status quo for the sake of it.

trying to convince me to abandon D&D and all my sunk costs to spend more money on another fantasy game that will basically scratch the same itch is not persuasive

You already have sunk costs, and have to spend WAY more money, by going along with 2024 D&D. Your older D&D books are invalidated and you now have to buy many more to keep up.

So what actually is there to be "invested" in here, that can't instead be done with a better product? It's already a new ruleset that has to be adopted. You're simply choosing to adopt the rules of a game that happens to be from the same company. It's like if a restaurant started selling chicken nuggets instead hamburgers, while deleting all the coupons you received from buying hamburgers, and you blindly insisting the chicken nuggets must be the best thing to eat, since you formerly bought hamburgers there.

I suggest that your argument might gain more adherents if you didn't start by, in effect, telling people they are stupid sheep for liking what they like (or for not liking what you like).

This is you putting words in someone's mouth, yet again. Also, people don't know what they like best if they don't experience alternatives. If people truly feel D&D is the best, having come to that conclusion from playing many other games, then sure. But it's frequently the case that people have only experienced a sliver of what exists.

I'd also posit that most people have a bunch of things they would ideally like to change about D&D. Supporting another game will result in a higher chance of those desires being fulfilled. Like, you can talk directly with the person making DC20, ditto for various other games. Whereas with D&D? Fat chance they listen to your advice. They can't even design "conjure minor elementals" properly.

These days, i'm into less rules, not more.

D&D doesn't have less rules.

Yeah, I looked over the DC20 PDF and it's just another 5E Fantasy Heartbreaker.

Look at how it plays, not a PDF. There are games to watch and for me the combat there, with the system not being in its final form yet and people still needing to spend some time getting acquainted with the rules, was more kinetic and interesting and engaging than in most "professional" 5E D&D games, a system that's been given many years for people to learn and yet is still a source of constant confusion for "professional" players.

 

[TiQuinn]

Your older D&D books are invalidated and you now have to buy many more to keep up

TIL that books stopped working when new ones came out.

 

[GrimCo]

You already have sunk costs, and have to spend WAY more money, by going along with 2024 D&D. Your older D&D books are invalidated and you now have to buy many more to keep up.

No, you don't need to spend a dime. Rules will be out in SRD and OGL, which is enough to play game for essentially free. Old books aren't invalidated, since this is just update to original 5e.

So what actually is there to be "invested" in here, that can't instead be done with a better product? It's already a new ruleset that has to be adopted. You're simply choosing to adopt the rules of a game that happens to be from the same company. It's like if a restaurant started selling chicken nuggets instead hamburgers, while deleting all the coupons you received from buying hamburgers, and you blindly insisting the chicken nuggets must be the best thing to eat, since you formerly bought hamburgers there.

You can mix and match old and new. They specifically kept most of core 5e untouched because of compatibility. As mentioned above, old books plus new SRD.

D&D doesn't have less rules.

Compared to what? DC20 isnt out yet. When it comes out, we can compare it, 5e vs 5.5 vs DC20 and see which one is the crunchiest.

Look at how it plays, not a PDF. There are games to watch and for me the combat there, with the system not being in its final form yet and people still needing to spend some time getting acquainted with the rules, was more kinetic and interesting and engaging than in most "professional" 5E D&D games, a system that's been given many years for people to learn and yet is still a source of constant confusion for "professional" players.

Who cares about professional players? It only matters how it plays at your table. When it comes to d&d, every table plays different, even though everyone uses same source books.

 

[The Soloist]

LOL!

You sound like geek game store clerks who have tried to convince me, over the last 44 years, that a 'new' RPG would supplant D&D. That TSR is bad, that WoTC is bad.

Did not happen, will not happen.

I prefer Fantasy AGE and Dragonbane. I don't need them to replace D&D at the top. I couldn't care less what happens to D&D.

DC20 is yet another d20+bonus rollover game. Not interested.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Sigh. If you want to do something to stick it to those nasty corporate overlords who have the gall to sell us glossy D&D books (the gall!), play something that is different. Play Dogs in the Vineyard. Burning Wheel. Rebel by being different. Back in the day we angrily started to play Vampire, verily gnashing our teeth (which were quite long) at our corporate overlords who forced us to buy crap like Planescape. We didn't play the next Fantasy Heartbreaker. What kind of rebellion is this? Lame.

 

[Oofta]

That's not an argument of quality at all. Just an admission of wanting to go with the status quo for the sake of it.


You already have sunk costs, and have to spend WAY more money, by going along with 2024 D&D. Your older D&D books are invalidated and you now have to buy many more to keep up.

So what actually is there to be "invested" in here, that can't instead be done with a better product? It's already a new ruleset that has to be adopted. You're simply choosing to adopt the rules of a game that happens to be from the same company. It's like if a restaurant started selling chicken nuggets instead hamburgers, while deleting all the coupons you received from buying hamburgers, and you blindly insisting the chicken nuggets must be the best thing to eat, since you formerly bought hamburgers there.


This is you putting words in someone's mouth, yet again. Also, people don't know what they like best if they don't experience alternatives. If people truly feel D&D is the best, having come to that conclusion from playing many other games, then sure. But it's frequently the case that people have only experienced a sliver of what exists.

I'd also posit that most people have a bunch of things they would ideally like to change about D&D. Supporting another game will result in a higher chance of those desires being fulfilled. Like, you can talk directly with the person making DC20, ditto for various other games. Whereas with D&D? Fat chance they listen to your advice. They can't even design "conjure minor elementals" properly.


D&D doesn't have less rules.


Look at how it plays, not a PDF. There are games to watch and for me the combat there, with the system not being in its final form yet and people still needing to spend some time getting acquainted with the rules, was more kinetic and interesting and engaging than in most "professional" 5E D&D games, a system that's been given many years for people to learn and yet is still a source of constant confusion for "professional" players.

Telling people the same old "You just don't know better because you haven't tried other games" that we hear on a regular basis is the same as telling people that they're ignorant sheeple. We aren't. We just don't share your opinion. Could I enjoy another game? I assume so. But telling me I'm just ignorant because I don't agree with you is insulting. Yes, I have investment in D&D because investment is more than just dollars, I stick with D&D for multiple reasons for reasons I won't bother explaining here.

I will never tell you that you simply don't know any better because you haven't actually played the 2024 revision. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong to enjoy something I do. I may read a posting about what is different and why you happen to like it, it may even get me to take a look at a pdf or watch some actual plays. I'm not going to look at a game when you tell me I'm an ignoramus.

I will never, ever, tell someone they're making the wrong choice and that the game they enjoy deserves to die because I personally don't care for it. Nor am I going to go onto a fantasy football league website and tell people how much better off they would be if they just tried my personally preferred leisure time activity and that their league "deserves" ... well anything. Do what you want if it's rewarding for you.

If you want to get anyone interested in a game you're excited about, this is just about the worst way possible. Have a little respect for your fellow gamers next time, okay? There aren't that many of us.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

Apparently there ways to influence your roll by how well you roleplay. Which has always made me cringe. I suuuuck at social skills and anything that makes me have to use them to get bonuses to my rolls makes my scrotum shrink.

Yeah. Definitely not for me.

There's nothing like that in DC20?

Really?

Ehem... (emphasis mine)

Disposition System: Combines rolling dice with roleplay where the words you say to NPCs can trigger changes in them along with rolling high or low.

I wanna play that glib, suave talker because, in real life, I suck at it. As my posts are evidence of! Ha!

Mana instead of spellslots is self explanatory. Action points are just what you can do during a round of combat instead of being railroaded into "main action, move, bonus action, reaction". It adds variety and depth, while removing the cheese of trying to exploit your "bonus action" as much as possible, and is easier to teach a new player the basics IMO (no more trying to figure out what all is a bonus action). Rolling high is simply extra damage for exceeding the target's AC by an increment of 5; makes perfect sense to me - if you only needed to roll a 9 to hit, and roll a 19, then logically your attack should do more.

Sure. Uhuh. But the Kickstarter says:

Your Attacks deal more damage to enemies every 5 that you beat their Defense by. So it's not just " by an increment of 5" but for every increment of 5. Now I have to do more math (yes, it's easy math) every time I attack a creature. Hmm, I could do that with Savage Worlds which I find to be a superior game to D&D for me.

There are no damage rolls, so the extra time and math it takes to do that is cut out, and it removes the frustration of rolling really low on damage. It never made sense in D&D that you can roll a "critical hit" but then roll almost no damage. In general I've never liked the massive variance of damage dice on spells. There are already saving throws and other modifiers that can alter damage. (btw, I haven't watched the kickstarter video, but would recommend instead watching a sample round of combat)

If I wanted to play a non-D&D game with multiple metacurrencies, I'd play 2d20 games (which are AWESOME). Not a D&D heartbreaker that adds on stuff and goes:
See! We're so much cooler than D&D. We've go more... uh... POINTS to spend and slow (potentially) down your turn!!

Look, if you're going to come into the D&D forum and spout: Don't play D&D! Play this other game that's almost like D&D instead of... you know, the plethora of OTHER games that are not D&D, I'm going to wonder why I'd want to do that. ESPECIALLY when there are already awesome Almost D&D games out there (Shadowdark, A5E, Pathfinder, Etc.).

Saying: "Because D&D suxxors and we roxxor!" just isn't enough.

 

[mamba]

Your older D&D books are invalidated and you now have to buy many more to keep up.

no you don’t, that is what compatibility is for. If you do not think that 2024 is enough of an improvement then don’t buy it

D&D doesn't have less rules.

than what? DC20? Not so sure about that