D&D General D&D 3.5 - splatbook power creep or no?

[Blue]

This came up in another thread, and I need to check my memory since it's been literal decades.

My memories of 3.5 was that the player-facing options in the splatbooks really added power when someone was trying to optimize. Especially some prestige classes. This isn't saying all the material was more powerful, but some of it definitely could be either used or cherry-picked.

Someone else mentioned that all the most powerful options were in the core books (so that includes the Mystic Theurge and other DMG content, not just the PHB).

I really remember the splatbooks adding to power creep, and that someone intentionally optimizing a character with full access to the splatbooks would be able to create someone significantly more powerful than if limited to just the core books.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Tigris]

There is a difference for me between power creep and "characters become more powerfull with more options".


Powercreep = new released material is stronger.


Even if all material released is exactly as strong as one another, with mire options (due to synergie and better choices for specific situations), the powerlevel of classes does increase naturally due to the more choice.


3.5 had the power level of its options all oevr the place and never options were in average not more powerfull than PHB material.


So it was not (unnatural) powercreep, but power does increase (naturally) with more total options.


So for me yout thread title and your poll are 2 different questions.


Power creep is when old options become unplayable /need to be buffed becauae of new released material. Not thst new material is used in combination with old.

Like in trading card games when new cards have 2 times the number of hp.

 

[koumpou]

well it kind of is and isnt at the same time, for example archmage is one of the best prestige classes for some wizards, Mastery of Counterspelling, Mastery of Elements, Mastery of Shaping and Arcane Reach are abilities any wizard can use effectively although certain wizards are obviously better at using them than others, then you have eldritch knight which is one of the best gish prestige classes right behind abjurant champion, but the rest are mostly meh prestige classes, 3,5e has a lot of content and you have to use it or allow its usage wisely as a dm, personally i have some hard rules as a dm, no infinite stacking for obvious reasons, not permanent invincibility and no infinite resources, for example i remember a player that wanted to play a certain psionic prestige class that gives infinite power points for one minute per day and then he wanted to use a psionic power that extends the usage of a psionic power to have infinite power points and buff duration, i of course told him to piss off

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The issue with late 3.5 stuff was that while a lot of it was balanced against the PHB/DMG content, very little of it appears to have taken into consideration all the other supplemental stuff. So you got power creep when you started grabbing bits from multiple pieces that had unintended interactions.

A clever player with a good memory for where stuff was (or just the Giant in the Playground forum bookmarked) could quickly stack up feats and spells and prestige classes and templates in a way that absolutely was more powerful than what someone just using the core three books could do.

The difference between a fully maxed out character (even the non-joke ones) and a regular character was huge.

 

[koumpou]

and there is nothing wrong with that as long as everyone does the same and you all help people that dont have the time/knowledge/whatever else to do the same

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

and there is nothing wrong with that as long as everyone does the same and you all help people that dont have the time/knowledge/whatever else to do the same

And the DM has the time and inclination to adjust everything to account for the escalation.

I think there's a reason that very few people are playing 3.5 at this point. At some point, nearly everyone finds it's too much work.

 

[aco175]

What @Tigris said above. The more options and choices in the ways to set things up equals more power overall.

Then a new update comes out and players cry "nerf" when a spell or feat wants to be rolled back.

 

[TwoSix]

Both. Newer books added options, that when mixed with the strongest options in core, produced an even stronger combination.

But the core "overly strong" classes were problematically strong even from the PHB. You didn't anything beyond the material in the 3 core books to be able to handle CR20+ creatures in the low teen levels, as long as you were playing wizards, druids, and clerics.

A wizard/master specialist/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, as an example, was certainly better than a pure wizard, but a pure wizard was still innately problematic.

 

[koumpou]

Both. Newer books added options, that when mixed with the strongest options in core, produced an even stronger combination.

But the core "overly strong" classes were problematically strong even from the PHB. You didn't anything beyond the material in the 3 core books to be able to handle CR20+ creatures in the low teen levels, as long as you were playing wizards, druids, and clerics.

A wizard/master specialist/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, as an example, was certainly better than a pure wizard, but a pure wizard was still innately problematic.

a pure wizard has more feats though which can be way more powerful than all the abilities you get from this prestige classes if you go that route, of course a wizard/master specialist/initiate of the sevenfold veil is a really strong combination, personally i would go for wizard elven generalist (gray elf) 5 incantatrix 10 archmage 5, high arcana , mastery of counter spelling coupled with improved counterspell, mastery of elements for blasting, arcane reach to turn touch spells into effectively rays thus coupling it with split ray metamagic for only +1 spell level, master of shaping to not hit your allies with aoe spells (disjunction enemies magic items without affecting nearby allies is just broken) and spell like ability wish sounds good

 

[Desdichado]

I thought most of the splatbook alternate classes were weaker compared to the core. I was always looking for ways to buff up options like swashbucklers, soulknives, etc. Conceptually I loved the new classes, but in practice, they were weak. That said, a lot of the feats were over-powered, many of the prestige classes no doubt were, and ability to create broken combinations increased with everything that was added. I dunno. I never gamed with a bunch of power gamers, so it wasn't much of a problem for any of the tables that I frequented.