D&D General D&D 3.5 - splatbook power creep or no?

Did unlimited access to the the splatbooks significantly increase optimized character power in 3.5?

  • No.

  • Yes.


Results are only viewable after voting.
I thought most of the splatbook alternate classes were weaker compared to the core. I was always looking for ways to buff up options like swashbucklers, soulknives, etc. Conceptually I loved the new classes, but in practice, they were weak. That said, a lot of the feats were over-powered, many of the prestige classes no doubt were, and ability to create broken combinations increased with everything that was added. I dunno. I never gamed with a bunch of power gamers, so it wasn't much of a problem for any of the tables that I frequented.
some classes were weak some just didng get enough love, but scout was strong, ninja was strong, marshal gets real strong in epic for a dip, duskblade/knight/hexblade/spellthief and warmage were playable but most of the others were meh or very situational with the exceptional of warlock being very strong on low magic campaigns and very situational with his infinite spell like abilities
 

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I think there were a lot of things which seemed overpowered until you actually put them into play, which a lot of people didn't.

For instance, the Battle Blessing feat from Complete Champion seemed like it was wildly overpowered, as it let paladins cast any spell on their spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action as a swift action (and cast any spell with a full-round action as a standard action), essentially letting them use Quicken Spell on all of their spells with no level adjustment. Crazy overpowered, right?

Actually no, as it turns out. You see, paladin spellcasting in 3.5 was ridiculously weak for several reasons. For instance, their caster level was half of their class level, which meant that it became progressively more difficult to get past enemies' spell resistance as you gained levels. Likewise, their spellcasting was Wisdom-based; paladins already needed a high Strength and Constitution to be front-line combatants, and Charisma for a significant number of their class abilities, which meant that they tended to tank Wisdom, meaning that their spell DCs tended to suck. And of course, their reduced spell progression meant that they were casting spells like dispel evil at 14th level while the party cleric had gotten it back at 9th level.

All that Battle Blessing really did was let paladins use buffs and supplementary healing without having to give up their full attack actions, which was an overall minor increase in their power by making what was effectively a worthless ability (i.e. their spellcasting) slightly less worthless. In other words, it was a minor band-aid of a patch in the form of a feat, rather than being the massive boost in power is appeared to be at first glance.
 

I think there were a lot of things which seemed overpowered until you actually put them into play, which a lot of people didn't.

For instance, the Battle Blessing feat from Complete Champion seemed like it was wildly overpowered, as it let paladins cast any spell on their spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action as a swift action (and cast any spell with a full-round action as a standard action), essentially letting them use Quicken Spell on all of their spells with no level adjustment. Crazy overpowered, right?

Actually no, as it turns out. You see, paladin spellcasting in 3.5 was ridiculously weak for several reasons. For instance, their caster level was half of their class level, which meant that it became progressively more difficult to get past enemies' spell resistance as you gained levels. Likewise, their spellcasting was Wisdom-based; paladins already needed a high Strength and Constitution to be front-line combatants, and Charisma for a significant number of their class abilities, which meant that they tended to tank Wisdom, meaning that their spell DCs tended to suck. And of course, their reduced spell progression meant that they were casting spells like dispel evil at 14th level while the party cleric had gotten it back at 9th level.

All that Battle Blessing really did was let paladins use buffs and supplementary healing without having to give up their full attack actions, which was an overall minor increase in their power by making what was effectively a worthless ability (i.e. their spellcasting) slightly less worthless. In other words, it was a minor band-aid of a patch in the form of a feat, rather than being the massive boost in power is appeared to be at first glance.
for the most part you are right but battle blessing was very cool for buffing yourself as a paladin especially with some paladin spells from spell compendium for example Righteous Fury, also i found out that the best way to play a paladin with spells is to deny your spells as a paladin to take the extra feats and then go pious templar to regain your paladin spellcasting on top of dr/- bonus feats and mettle and lvl 4 paladin spells at lvl 12 instead of 14 for pure paladin
 

Definitely power creep but mainly because the splats gave more options for the most powerful PHB classes. The splatbooks didn't have power creep per se, in isolation, but overall the game did end up a bit unwieldy if everything was available.

Some years ago, during the first years of 5e, I ran a levels 3-14 campaign in 3.5, but the players were restricted to non-PHB classes that were considered tier 3 and 4 in the community rankings. The party was actually surprisingly balanced within itself, all things considered. No PC overshadowed the others and no one was left behind, even at levels 10+. It was a fun experiment.
 



The issue with late 3.5 stuff was that while a lot of it was balanced against the PHB/DMG content, very little of it appears to have taken into consideration all the other supplemental stuff. So you got power creep when you started grabbing bits from multiple pieces that had unintended interactions.
There was a discussion about this at one point. Because the material was being doing by freelancers with overview by the internal team, material was never really playtested against other material in the pipeline at the same time. Since a hardcover was a significant amount of time to produce, that meant that things really only were checked against the core book.

A clever player with a good memory for where stuff was (or just the Giant in the Playground forum bookmarked) could quickly stack up feats and spells and prestige classes and templates in a way that absolutely was more powerful than what someone just using the core three books could do.

The difference between a fully maxed out character (even the non-joke ones) and a regular character was huge.
This was my experience as well.
 

I thought most of the splatbook alternate classes were weaker compared to the core. I was always looking for ways to buff up options like swashbucklers, soulknives, etc. Conceptually I loved the new classes, but in practice, they were weak. That said, a lot of the feats were over-powered, many of the prestige classes no doubt were, and ability to create broken combinations increased with everything that was added. I dunno. I never gamed with a bunch of power gamers, so it wasn't much of a problem for any of the tables that I frequented.
Again, some, even the majority of the stuff being weaker is immaterial to the question. Because optimization is already only looking at the stronger options.

If 5% of the material was more powerful than the core books either in total or cherry-picking low level abilities from, another 5% of the material could have overpowered synergies with the core book material, and 10% could have OP synergies with other splatbook material (the larger number because they said they couldn't playtest material in the pipeline against other material in the pipeline), you've got plenty of picking for someone trying to optimize.
 

Yes and no.

There was so much options. To put it in perspective: 55 core classes, 750 prestige classes, 2800 feats spread across 60+ books. Good chunk of feats were weak, situational or pure trap options. PHB big 3 are by far most broken/powerfull classes overall (wizard, cleric, druid). Sure, you can sift trough all the splatbooks and cobble some feat/prestige class combo and it would in game be maybe 10-20% better than just playing straight up phb Cleric (i'm mostly familiar with them since it's full caster i played most).

Great deal of prestige classes were trap options. They had bonkers pre requisits (feat/skill/ ability) that most of the time weren't even usefull to the build.

When it comes to base classes, only 4-5 were on par with core 3.

But, to be fair. Bo9S is one supplement that made martials finally almost on par with casters. I will forever stand on my opinion that Warblade is best version of Fighter class in any edition.
 

As people would often point out in the 3.5 era, most of the most broken things in the system were in the PHB. Casting in Wild Shape for Druids. Animal Companions that seemed about as powerful as other PC's. Sno Cone Wish Machine shenanigans with Simulacrum for Wizards. Cleric's using Righteous Might ahd Divine Power to be better Fighters than the Fighter. Not to mention Polymorph and even martial stunts like spiked chain trippers!

Is it true, certainly, that other books could make the situation worse. Divine Metamagic could be horribly abused, and every time a new spell was added to the game, casters improved (especially ones who could cherry pick new spells without any real cost, like Clerics or Druids). Every time a new animal was added to the game, Druids got stronger (Fleshraker Dinosaurs, anyone?).

Attempts were made to power down some archetypes, and power up others, and a lot of largely useless dreck came with it- people remember the Incantatrixes and Planar Shepherds of 3.5, but you don't hear anyone going on about how amazing the Samurai or Green Star Adept were, lol.

And it wasn't just spellcasters- you got martial power creep as well, with uberchargers and wacky builds like Jack B Quick, the warrior who could attack you back twice every time you hit him (I can't remember the exact build, I think it used Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit and some other things).

Yes, sifting through all the dreck could allow one to unearth powerful building blocks, that, when combined, could create absurd characters, like Hulking Hurler/Warhulks strong enough to break planets in half, but all of this only existed if the DM was sleeping behind the wheel.

If a DM said "oh sure, all WotC books are fine" without looking at them, exercising veto power, and clearly outlining what the power level of their game should look like, yeah, you end up with some crazy results. But most groups didn't look like this. Many people who played 3.5 in the wild kept playing the game the way it had always been played. They marveled at how amazingly powerful the Monk and the Rogue were (I'm not being ironic here!) with "so many powers" and "look at all those d6's!". You had people proudly playing Barbarians and Fighters who thought Hexblades and Swashbucklers were weird and busted.

The Warlock class was seen as busted by a lot of DM's used to the traditional paradigm of losing power slowly over the course of an adventure because "OMG, they can Eldritch Blast and use their powers all day long!" without realizing that most of what they got, was really a pale imitation of what a traditional spellcaster could do.

I played with many DM's who felt that a first level Wizard being able to toss out a handful of d3 rays of frost was "WotC power creep", because they were basically a few free darts that ignored armor and creatures that had damage reduction!

It's not that 3.5 was any more or less busted than AD&D, especially by the tail end of Second Edition. It was just that the game was catering to a wide array of possible customers. You had traditional types who saw no problem with Wizard supremacy but were aghast at Sneak Attack being added to multiple attacks per turn (somehow ignoring how easy it was to deny Sneak Attack in the first place) and thought Fireball was the be all and end all of magic power.

You had people who noted the flaws with the PHB Fighter and were annoyed when it was eventually patched by a completely new class with the Warblade.

You had people who wanted to run epic battles of nigh-omnipotent characters who could challenge any monster in the Monster Manual by level 5, only playing with the sharpest, most expensive LEGO's in their builds.

And you had people who just wanted to play weird and different things, like psionic characters, Truenamers, and soulmelds.

And when all these people came into contact with one another, sparks flew, as it seemed like everyone was playing a very different game. Or worse, playing the game "wrong".

It fell to the DM, as it has always done, and will always do, to sort all of this out. But now the nerdrage was out in the open for all to see. You had people who were offended that, with a permissive DM and enough books, things that would never be allowed in their own games existed, and used that as a rallying cry as to why the game was busted and needed to be fixed.

And that's never really changed, has it? Look at 5e. I saw a lot of hate spilled on these forums over things like the Twilight Domain Cleric. It's too strong, it makes all other Clerics redundant, it makes it impossible to kill PC's (amusing, since I've heard that chestnut since 2014, so what's the difference?).

There are always going to be elements in the game that aren't going to fit with your vision, and your preferred style of play. Most DM's have at least six pages of house rules (and probably more) just to lock down what their vision and preferred style of play is as a result. Which typically involves nerfs and bans to "official" content.

And that's how it should be. Yet, somehow, the fact that a DM has to do this, has to exert veto power, is seen as some great burden. "Why can't TSR/WotC/whoever just make stuff for the game I want to play? Why should I have to fix their game for them?".

As if people who play the game in another way shouldn't exist.

That having been said, sure, not every DM has the time to vet every possible new idea. Some things really are just beyond the pale compared to other things. D&D has always had problems balancing it's various options*, because every person who has added to it has a different idea of what D&D is (and yes, mistakes can be made too, such as poor writing or editing). And you can risk having the game get away with you if you're blindsided by something you didn't expect.

Which can happen with things in the PHB, let alone splatbook #573. Now true, having that many splats out in the wild can certainly make things harder on a DM, and players can sometimes be put out when the DM says "no, you can't use this thing that's in a rulebook", but it's not a new problem. It's a very old one, and the answer isn't "make less books". It's about the DM and the players being able to communicate with one another and make compromises and admit mistakes, being able to move forward like rational beings.

*Without getting into what happens if the people who make the game actually try to balance things. Because each person has a different idea of what that looks like. Slow leveling Wizards with few spells at low levels, bad AC, d4 hit dice, and the ability to have a spell interrupted by a stiff breeze, forced to scrounge and scavenge for precious spell components to "earn" fantastic power might seem balanced to some. And might be seen as a horrible experience for others once you get said power, only to run into "save neg." on most of your spells, enemies with high magic resistance, immunities to certain spells and damage types, ever increasing saving throw values, antimagic zones, and the like. All while the Fighter is dual wielding +5 Intelligent weapons with an AC of -9, over 100 HP, 8 attacks per round while Hasted, and saves against everything on a 2 or better.

Just as examples.
 

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