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D&D and the rising pandemic

Ryujin

Hero
It’s actually worse than that.

Like Umbran said, this has become a matter of identity. For them, accepting their fantasy has been debunked could be as disruptive to their sense of self as finding out their ancestors didn’t come over on the Mayflower, the family fortune was built on illegal arms sales, or granny was a madame in Las Vegas.

It’s not just, “Ooops, I was wrong.”, it’s “My world is coming undone.” It’s the psychological equivalent of a roundhouse blow from the reigning heavy champion of the world.
We of Highlands descent have a pretty simple way of handling this; we start by admitting that our ancestors were recalcitrant horse and cattle thieves, then move on from there. Doesn't work for everyone, but it helps overall ;)
 

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FitzTheRuke

Legend
There's an element of that, too. But consider the next step, the broader implications...

If you are wrong about this, what else is linked to it that you might also be wrong about? If you're into these ideas, you probably went to a couple of specific places to get information, and you probably believed them on those things too. But now all those sources, and all the things you believed from them, become suspect.

It goes from the embarassment about being a fool, to being oh, crap, everything you know is wrong very quickly.

Yeah... then you also have not just "I did a foolish thing" but "I AM a fool" and "I have always been a fool".

No wonder they cling so hard.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
We of Highlands descent have a pretty simple way of handling this; we start by admitting that our ancestors were recalcitrant horse and cattle thieves, then move on from there. Doesn't work for everyone, but it helps overall ;)
Must be my Scottish side. I always assume that I've probably made a massive mistake recently (without knowing what it is) and that my ancestors accomplished nothing of note. Of course, I'm Canadian, so I'm also very sorry for whatever I've done!
 

Ryujin

Hero
Must be my Scottish side. I always assume that I've probably made a massive mistake recently (without knowing what it is) and that my ancestors accomplished nothing of note. Of course, I'm Canadian, so I'm also very sorry for whatever I've done!
Canadian, of Scottish roots, and every time I read one of the stories out of "The Book of the Clans" I feel like I should call someone and apologize too :ROFLMAO:
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Yeah... then you also have not just "I did a foolish thing" but "I AM a fool" and "I have always been a fool".

No wonder they cling so hard.

Well, my point is that it then is beyond the shame of foolishness. It becomes about literally not knowing what "knowledge" you hold true can be trusted. That's a psychologically deeper issue than shame.

It isn't, "Oh, I've been a fool." It becomes "Well... who the heck am I if all this stuff is wrong?"
 

Rabulias

Hero
Well, my point is that it then is beyond the shame of foolishness. It becomes about literally not knowing what "knowledge" you hold true can be trusted. That's a psychologically deeper issue than shame.

It isn't, "Oh, I've been a fool." It becomes "Well... who the heck am I if all this stuff is wrong?"
So what brings this about more in some people than others? I know we all have it to some degree or another, but I have changed my mind about many significant things over the years, and it has not caused even a minor identity crisis for me. Is there a root cause or other signs that signals this tendency?
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
An interesting little article discussing C19’s 2 month surge/decline/surge cycle. They note that this cycle maintained itself through changes in human behavior, seasons, vaccinations and other variables.


Towards the end, there’s also this tidbit:
Eventually, immunity will become widespread enough that another wave as large and damaging as the delta wave will not be possible. “Barring something unexpected,” said Dr. Scott Gottleib, a former Food and Drug Administration commissioner and author of “Uncontrolled Spread,” a new book on COVID, “I’m of the opinion that this is the last major wave of infection.”

Note, he’s not contradicting many virologists’ assertion that C19 is likely endemic at this point, but rather, he things we’re approaching a point in global society where major, dangerous outbreaks may be a thing of the past.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
So what brings this about more in some people than others? I know we all have it to some degree or another, but I have changed my mind about many significant things over the years, and it has not caused even a minor identity crisis for me. Is there a root cause or other signs that signals this tendency?
I don’t know that it’s present MORE in some than others, but it may rather be that some of those beliefs are more easily challenged than others.

If the 5-generations old story about your family’s noble roots in europe are wrong, it’s not going to be easy to prove that without some quality research. Most people won’t even challenge that. So, barring extraordinary circumstances, the erroneous belief is unlikely to be challenged. Ever.

But if something new gets absorbed into your idea of self, and it happens to be newsworthy and actively challenged by others? Things can get ugly very quickly. A classic example happens when there is a schism in a family because XYZ belief system is supposedly a cult. People sever lifelong bonds over things like this…sometimes with “extreme prejudice.”

As for the signposts? Look for strong beliefs that should not/cannot be challenged. Emotional overreaction to the the belief being challenged- “OVER” being key. Mania regarding the belief.
 
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Janx

Hero
So what brings this about more in some people than others? I know we all have it to some degree or another, but I have changed my mind about many significant things over the years, and it has not caused even a minor identity crisis for me. Is there a root cause or other signs that signals this tendency?
Fear. One group of people test high for it. it shows in their politics and the kind of things they support.
 

Ryujin

Hero
So what brings this about more in some people than others? I know we all have it to some degree or another, but I have changed my mind about many significant things over the years, and it has not caused even a minor identity crisis for me. Is there a root cause or other signs that signals this tendency?
That might be because you evolved your point of view for yourself, rather than having an "alternate reality" slap you across the face like an iced haddock.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
So what brings this about more in some people than others?

So, as I understand it, it isn't really that some people are more vulnerable to it than others - as you say, everyone is. What we are seeing is many people struck by it on the same topic.

...I have changed my mind about many significant things over the years, and it has not caused even a minor identity crisis for me. Is there a root cause or other signs that signals this tendency?

The first question to ask is how deeply those things really mattered to you. The second question is how many other things were linked to it that also really mattered to you. The third is how many decisions have you made based on those items that you'd regret if you change your mind.

Like, if you were a dedicated iPhone person for years, you might resist the idea that Android phones are better. And, sure, you're bought into the Apple sphere of influence on many apps and services, and changing would be a hassle. But, you know, changing just means a different phone, different apps. There's no real consequence for your prior choice, or changing. So, you might just change your mind, and find Android to be better.

But, if you've been listening to Some News for six years, and they told you covid was a hoax and to not get vaxxed. They also told you a lot of other things, though, that you bought into. And, well, if you came to change your mind, that probably means that some of your voting choices actually hurt people who didn't deserve it....

What's easier at that point - Changing your mind, or sticking your fingers in your ears and loudly singing, "LALALALALA! I AM NOT LISTENING!!!1!"?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Fear. One group of people test high for it. it shows in their politics and the kind of things they support.

My understanding is there's actually another thing they test high for - disgust. It is the emotion of safety. Disgust keeps you away from spoiled food and disease. It also keeps your social in-group in line. When you misbehave, and your social group turns their back on you, they aren't scared of you - they are disgusted with you.

When you hear someone saying that some out-group is dirty, diseased, or sexually perverted, that's not fear talking, that's disgust.
 

Janx

Hero
My understanding is there's actually another thing they test high for - disgust. It is the emotion of safety. Disgust keeps you away from spoiled food and disease. It also keeps your social in-group in line. When you misbehave, and your social group turns their back on you, they aren't scared of you - they are disgusted with you.

When you hear someone saying that some out-group is dirty, diseased, or sexually perverted, that's not fear talking, that's disgust.
good point, though I think fear can be traced back in there.

groups that practice shaming or shunning, are in effect using fear. You don't go against the group or you'll be out. That's scary.

It's just as easy also to disguise fear as disgust. Ex. all those strongly homophobic ranters who later turn out to be gay. It's an overcompensating mechanism.

Disgust strikes me as a form of false bravado. In the Covid conversation, these people are calling anyone who urged caution, masking, vaccination cowards. When in fact, it was THEY who were afraid, and in fact fear was used to incite them. Fear of losing rights, as if it's an actual slippery slope to go from wearing a mask to not being able to read the bible. Fear is embedded in all the memes that built this up.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
We of Highlands descent have a pretty simple way of handling this; we start by admitting that our ancestors were recalcitrant horse and cattle thieves, then move on from there. Doesn't work for everyone, but it helps overall ;)
My father of Scottish descent also went with the horse thief angle but looking back they were a major sept of the Skene Clan centered near Amberdene and our name is even now on air ports.
 

J.Quondam

CR 1/8
good point, though I think fear can be traced back in there.

groups that practice shaming or shunning, are in effect using fear. You don't go against the group or you'll be out. That's scary.
I think this counts for a lot of it, especially in enclaves where the belief is widespread among the population, as is in a lot of rural areas.

Even if someone might be otherwise equipped to confront reality and reject an untrue belief, they might be considerably less likely to do so if their family, neighbors, coworkers, church groups, etc, all profess that same belief. In a small, insular locale where political affiliation might run to 80% or 90% or even more, the risk of ostracization is a terrifying prospect. Heck some people are freaked out just by getting unliked on FB.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Like, if you were a dedicated iPhone person for years, you might resist the idea that Android phones are better. And, sure, you're bought into the Apple sphere of influence on many apps and services, and changing would be a hassle. But, you know, changing just means a different phone, different apps. There's no real consequence for your prior choice, or changing. So, you might just change your mind, and find Android to be better.

The number of logical fallacies to that kind of thinking are adding up - Now you've got the Sunk Cost Fallacy to go with Occam and Hanlon's Razors (discussed previously).
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
My understanding is there's actually another thing they test high for - disgust. It is the emotion of safety. Disgust keeps you away from spoiled food and disease. It also keeps your social in-group in line. When you misbehave, and your social group turns their back on you, they aren't scared of you - they are disgusted with you.

When you hear someone saying that some out-group is dirty, diseased, or sexually perverted, that's not fear talking, that's disgust.
They have done studies on that difference in how easily someone is disgusted vs political leaning and discovered they can take rotten meat pictures and use neural scans with like 95 percent accuracy what group they are likely to profess.
 



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