D&D and the rising pandemic

[Ryujin]

Apparently the CDC has decided that the exhaled viral load from vaccinated carriers isn't appreciably different from unvaccinated. Given its abundantly clear that the symptoms and outcomes are radically different, I'm wondering how that even works; you'd think if the immune system is beating things down enough to positively impact outcomes it'd be reducing the load, too.

Unless the body is much more capable of fighting the virus in the bloodstream, than it is in the sinus cavity.

 

[Umbran]

Apparently the CDC has decided that the exhaled viral load from vaccinated carriers isn't appreciably different from unvaccinated.

Not quite.

As I noted above, with the Delta variant, viral loads in the upper respiratory tract are orders of magnitude higher than with the original strain, even though symptoms are not much worse. So, with Delta, the exhaled vial loads may still be much lower for vaccinated people, but that may not be low enough to prevent spread.

Also, while masks are mostly there to keep your viral particles in, it has been clearly shown that properly wearing a mask does give you some protection against incoming particles. The vacine works well, but it isnt' perfect, and layering this protection helps keep you safe from breakthrough infection.

Also, it has become obvious that there's value in normalizing mask-wearing. Most places cannot enforce "only unvaccinated need to wear masks". They can enforce "everyone wears a mask". So, there's value in telling vaccinated people to wear masks, if only because that increases the number of unvaccinated mask-wearers, too.

 

[Janx]

Not quite.

As I noted above, with the Delta variant, viral loads in the upper respiratory tract are orders of magnitude higher than with the original strain, even though symptoms are not much worse. So, with Delta, the exhaled vial loads may still be much lower for vaccinated people, but that may not be low enough to prevent spread.

Also, while masks are mostly there to keep your viral particles in, it has been clearly shown that properly wearing a mask does give you some protection against incoming particles. The vacine works well, but it isnt' perfect, and layering this protection helps keep you safe from breakthrough infection.

Also, it has become obvious that there's value in normalizing mask-wearing. Most places cannot enforce "only unvaccinated need to wear masks". They can enforce "everyone wears a mask". So, there's value in telling vaccinated people to wear masks, if only because that increases the number of unvaccinated mask-wearers, too.

isn't that basically what we been saying the whole. Wear a mask. It's simpler than doing math.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Not quite.

As I noted above, with the Delta variant, viral loads in the upper respiratory tract are orders of magnitude higher than with the original strain, even though symptoms are not much worse. So, with Delta, the exhaled vial loads may still be much lower for vaccinated people, but that may not be low enough to prevent spread.

What I said was what the article I was reading indicated: that there was no meaningful difference. That doesn't mean it was accurate, but I didn't misrepresent it.

Also, while masks are mostly there to keep your viral particles in, it has been clearly shown that properly wearing a mask does give you some protection against incoming particles. The vacine works well, but it isnt' perfect, and layering this protection helps keep you safe from breakthrough infection.

Really? All of the latter day material I saw on the subject indicated that the incoming protection from most masks was trivial in most cases (which does not make this true with all masks, just the ones most people are using).

Also, it has become obvious that there's value in normalizing mask-wearing. Most places cannot enforce "only unvaccinated need to wear masks". They can enforce "everyone wears a mask". So, there's value in telling vaccinated people to wear masks, if only because that increases the number of unvaccinated mask-wearers, too.

This I agree with completely. The various honor-system rules about vaccinated versus unvaccinated struck as making a massive misjudgment of human nature.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Unless the body is much more capable of fighting the virus in the bloodstream, than it is in the sinus cavity.

That was the only thing I could think of, but it seemed--odd.

 

[CleverNickName]

The various honor-system rules about vaccinated versus unvaccinated struck as making a massive misjudgment of human nature.

That's a very generous way to say it. I would have phrased it more like

 

[Thomas Shey]

I try not to let my cynicism of my fellow humans spill out too strongly or there'd be no end of it.

 

[CapnZapp]

To return to the topic I discussed a few pages ago. The fact that it is unrealistic to think masks is the answer. Keeping masks and other restrictions just to chiefly save the lives of unvaccinated will soon become untenable.

Please note: While the practical suggestion in the end might sound similar ("drop restrictions"), this is a completely different argument than the ignorant "let's skip restrictions entirely and just pretend there is no pandemic" and comes from a very different angle.

First off I completely agree the idea to only require masks for unvaccinated is ridiculous and needs to die pronto. Either everybody needs to wear a mask or you can forget about it. In the short term, I have no issue with masking.

No, the real issue is that you would need masking as long as so many remain unvaccinated. Which in practice means so long it could as well mean "forever".

There will come a time and it will come soon when society decides to dump those that could have gotten the vaccine but decided against it. This will be a time where restrictions are lifted, masking is gone, and society returns to normal.

Except with a lot of deaths among unvaccinated.

As long as the unvaccinated doesn't clog the healthcare system completely (making other care unavailable for the vaccinated) this will be considered acceptable. They made their choice, they need to "live" with it.



Here's just a single article I think is representative:

Opinion | It’s Time to Rethink What the ‘End’ of the Pandemic Looks Like

Adjustments to our Covid-19 mindset could do wonders as we face down the virus in the months ahead.

www.politico.com

Note the way the author veils his conclusions instead of saying them clearly and outright. It's still a bit too early to suggest dropping masks outright.

 

[Hussar]

It is kinda interesting how different countries have approached masking. Masking was a think here in Japan long before covid. Heck, it was a thing here long before SARS. The point was always, "I have a social responsiblity not make other people sick with my germs." Makes a lot of sense in a country with a population density like China or Japan.

I imagine there are all sorts of papers that could be written on the topic.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It is kinda interesting how different countries have approached masking. Masking was a think here in Japan long before covid. Heck, it was a thing here long before SARS. The point was always, "I have a social responsiblity not make other people sick with my germs." Makes a lot of sense in a country with a population density like China or Japan.

I imagine there are all sorts of papers that could be written on the topic.

I’ve actually used Japan’s C19 data to push back against anti-maskers of various flavors in other contexts. The fact that a country with an older, more densely packed population than the USA and had no real lockdown has a mortality rate about 1/50th of ours says VOLUMES about the efficacy of masks and personal hygiene measures.

It’s often a conversation ender.