D&D and war

[S'mon]

Given how D&D works though, this has unintended side-effects. Yes, everyone gets appropriate skills, but they also get a tremendous number of hit points, and, since the overall level of the game is higher, the magic level is much higher.

Yeah - if the average person is 8th, the physics become really weird; you can jump your army off a 50' cliff without fear because they take 5d6 damage but have ca 40-60hp... personally in my game the average person is around 2nd-3rd level with about 8hp; this prevents the "house cat slays Commoner in shock horror!" type problem but doesn't break the inbuilt mechanics - most people can still die when hit by an arrow, a 20' fall is best avoided, etc. I use:

Novice - 1st level. A "green" soldier is likely War-1, if he's in good shape he'll have CON +1 or +2 (12 or 14) and 9-10 hp. Includes recruits straight out of basic training, peasant militia from frontier areas, most city watch who haven't seen combat, etc.
Trained - 2nd level. A typical War-2 soldier with 14-16 hp.
Experienced - 3rd level. Maybe a junior NCO War-3. 19-22 hp.
Veteran - 4th level, War-4 Sergeant with around 28 hp.
Elite - 5th level, War-5 Platoon Sergeant or crack assault troops, Imperial Guard etc, around 35 hp.

 

[S'mon]

8000 soldiers vs 1 lvl 20 party:

The 8000 soldiers' morale would break down like nobodies business; imagine this from the eyes of Bob Warrior Lvl 1

Um, I think it was earlier in this thread I pointed out the WW1 parrallel. "Okay lads, think of blighty! The folks back home are relying on you. Just one more push and we'll get 'em off the hill... "

Historicaly, it _is_ possible to march troops motivated by patriotic fervour into the jaws of death. Repeatedly. America experienced this in the Civil War, which made US commanders reluctant to do the same in WW1, but many 20th century armies spent soldiers like nobody's business. And if appeals to patriotism fails, you have the 'bulldog' troops (military police, commissars etc) who shoot/stab any man who turns to flee. Soviet infantry charges vs King Tigers looks a lot like the D&D paradigm to me, with a similar result - the infantry die in droves, but in the end the KTs have to retreat or be overrun and destroyed.

 

[S'mon]

So in short, an 8000 man army with warriors lvl 1 and officers lvl 3-4 wouldnt do anything against lvl 20 characters.

Although despite what I said above, IMC the typical battle between 8000 orcs and 4 15th level PCs does basically go exactly as you described. Ill-motivated troops and those unprepared for the experience of high-level warfare will generally break after losing a relatively small number of soldiery to spectacular area-effect spells. High-level Fighters are less visible so have less impact on their own unless they can kill the enemy commanders or have slain a substantial proportion of the enemy. And going by the Iliad etc the usual response is just to stand off and throw things at them... the lone Ftr-20 who needs to move & attack will only be killing 1 foe/round and taking maybe 50-100 javelins/rocks/arrows per round, not good odds. High level Ftrs are much better used at the forefront of their own army, to break the enemy line, not dropped into the middle of the enemy.

 

[S'mon]

So in short, an 8000 man army with warriors lvl 1 and officers lvl 3-4 wouldnt do anything against lvl 20 characters.

I notice in your example what's happening is that a couple of Companies are destroyed, so another one routs. But this army has _80_ companies - the rear echelons may be half a mile from the battlefront! And even with low-magic demographics this army will have a smattering of wizards, clerics and mid-level Fighters who will be bostering the troops, exhorting them on, killing those who flee... only an army totally unexposed to sorcery will flee because of 2-3% losses, unless it's one of those middle-eastern "Show" armies beloved of potentates like Tigranes whose army of 200,000 was routed by 10,000 veteran Romans under Lucullus at Tigranocerta.
And there's an obvious modern parrallel - in the last Gulf war, many Iraqi units fought furiously when they had to have known they had no chance to win. At one point a squadron of 14 T-54 tanks attacked a British squadron of 14 Challenger-2s (equivalent to the US M1 Abrams heavy MBT). They were wiped out of course... but the fact that anyone is prepared to do that kind of thing - and Iraq is not a warrior culture like Britain or America - says a lot about battlefield psychology.

 

[S'mon]

Now the lvl 20 Fighter bursts out like a Musashi on crack tearing apart men with greater cleave and haste. Everyone who tries to stand against him is instantly mowed down and no attacks seem to have an effect on him. Combined with the magical onslaught it will be enough for any warriors who are facing him to flee.

My armies IMC usually include "giant killer" elite units assigned to deal with exactly this kind of threat - Barbarians are perfect, but any big lunks with 2-handed weapons (preferably x3 crit), high STR and Power Attack will do it. A typical trooper would be Ftr-4 STR 18 spec w greataxe, at full PA he does 1d12+16 per hit, or 3d12+48 on a crit. A War-5 with same stats is also good (also does 1d12+16), a BBn-4 STR 22 Raging is even better (1d12+17).

Edit: This is a house rule but IMC I use the "fighting on the run" rule which lets you move-attack-move, provoking AoOs normally. With that rule, the giant killers can get 20-30 attacks/round on the Ftr 20 and end up not in contact with him, so after their attack the allied archer company can fire a couple hundred +1 arrows at him, then he only gets 1 attack back at them... this is because I'm a RBDM though.

Even if these guys get wiped out - the Ftr-20 might well call in an air strike on his own position - it gives him pause for thought and lets the archer companies (with +1 arrows) get in position for some rapid-shot 400 arrows/round goodness... The bog-standard War-1 militia units, if used at all, will be kept sandwiched between better quality troops and used to slow down enemy warriors, trained to disperse into skirmish formation if they come under area-effect attack.

 

[boredgremlin]

Actually with a critical hit power attack and STR bonuses are not supposed to multiply even though lots of DM's let it slide. The only thing that is supposed to multiply is the weapons base damage.

 

[S'mon]

Actually with a critical hit power attack and STR bonuses are not supposed to multiply even though lots of DM's let it slide. The only thing that is supposed to multiply is the weapons base damage.

If you're so bored, gremlin, read your darn rulebook. All bonuses multiply in 3e _except_ bonus dice for sneak attack, energy damage etc. All the non-dice bonuses multiply.

 

[D+1]

Also, read those demographics rules in the DMG one more time. This time, take note that they are in the "Campaigns" subsection on "World-Building" and that the tables provided are for RANDOM generation of information when you need that information quickly - that is, when you cannot or will not take the time to more carefully and consciously determine the information on your own. At every step where those rapid/random tables are provided there are also paragraphs of additional information intended to lead a DM who is in the process of building a campaign world towards making informed decisions rather than just making random determinations.

 

[Sarellion]

- and Iraq is not a warrior culture like Britain or America - says a lot about battlefield psychology.

Didn´t Iraq fought a war with Iran in the 80s? The whole population experienced a decade of a real nasty modern war.

 

[S'mon]

Didn´t Iraq fought a war with Iran in the 80s? The whole population experienced a decade of a real nasty modern war.

Yeah, they didn't do very well despite great technological superiority. I'd say Iran was more of a warrior/warlike culture, though not to the extent of eg America.