In any case 99% of the time running D&D what I find is that the high-level PCs see their role as being to kill the enemy leader, not to wipe out his army (though the Wizard will happily send a few mass damage spells their way); if the GM allows it then Buff-Scry-Teleport tends to dominate D&D high level warfare.
D&D and war
- Thread starter NimrodvanHall
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A couple points.
1) Reread the demographics in the DMG. There really arent that many high level characters. The ones you do have involved will be busy fighting the other sides high level guys. After that even the winners are gonna be hurt and depleted of magic, making them much easier targets for low level mooks.
2) A D&D battlefield would probably look more like modern urban warfare or vietnam style war then actual medieval war. The wizards would function like artillary, so there probably wouldnt be any massed formations to hit with fireballs, lightning bolts etc.
3) These people know how to fight wizards. Not much better on a wizard then a few good illusions. Make him waste his good magic hitting your phony knights or monsters. Then after he reveals his position with that shower him with arrows. High level warriors? Bunch of mooks with alchemists fire or acid, or even regular cheap oil they throw a torch into. Its all touch attacks so good armor isnt that relevant, it has splash damage so even a miss does something and any idiot can do it. Not to mention things like bullrush. Get 8 people trying to tackle a high level warrior and down he goes.
There would be dogs with patrols and camps to sniff out invisible enemies and probably lots of thunderstones and smoke sticks to deafen spellcasters and conceal the mooks from spells that need to be targeted. Not to mention bows and crossbows have better range then spells. You send up enough arrows and even with penalties from range some of them are gonna hit.
4) and most important. What makes you so sure these high level NPC's even want to help thier respective kingdoms? High level warriors might have thier own plans for the throne. High level divine casters should certainly be more involved with thier church and possibly healing soldiers then taking an active role in war unless its a holy war. High level mages are probably researching thier own magics and would likely charge so much that most kingdoms couldnt afford them anyway. And all these people are likely to have made a bunch of enemies who have nothing to do with this war but would be happy to swoop down to rob them, take thier homes, get involved in the war on the other side just to spite them or attack their now unprotected loved ones. It doesnt strike me as a coincidence that when heroes (high level PC's or NPC's) retire in stories its often because they found a family. If they just went wandering off thier enemies would probably attack loved ones to get back at them for old hurts.
So i contend that D&D would actually have very few high level people running around on either side. Making the low level mooks the ones who actually win or lose wars.
1) Reread the demographics in the DMG. There really arent that many high level characters. The ones you do have involved will be busy fighting the other sides high level guys. After that even the winners are gonna be hurt and depleted of magic, making them much easier targets for low level mooks.
2) A D&D battlefield would probably look more like modern urban warfare or vietnam style war then actual medieval war. The wizards would function like artillary, so there probably wouldnt be any massed formations to hit with fireballs, lightning bolts etc.
3) These people know how to fight wizards. Not much better on a wizard then a few good illusions. Make him waste his good magic hitting your phony knights or monsters. Then after he reveals his position with that shower him with arrows. High level warriors? Bunch of mooks with alchemists fire or acid, or even regular cheap oil they throw a torch into. Its all touch attacks so good armor isnt that relevant, it has splash damage so even a miss does something and any idiot can do it. Not to mention things like bullrush. Get 8 people trying to tackle a high level warrior and down he goes.
There would be dogs with patrols and camps to sniff out invisible enemies and probably lots of thunderstones and smoke sticks to deafen spellcasters and conceal the mooks from spells that need to be targeted. Not to mention bows and crossbows have better range then spells. You send up enough arrows and even with penalties from range some of them are gonna hit.
4) and most important. What makes you so sure these high level NPC's even want to help thier respective kingdoms? High level warriors might have thier own plans for the throne. High level divine casters should certainly be more involved with thier church and possibly healing soldiers then taking an active role in war unless its a holy war. High level mages are probably researching thier own magics and would likely charge so much that most kingdoms couldnt afford them anyway. And all these people are likely to have made a bunch of enemies who have nothing to do with this war but would be happy to swoop down to rob them, take thier homes, get involved in the war on the other side just to spite them or attack their now unprotected loved ones. It doesnt strike me as a coincidence that when heroes (high level PC's or NPC's) retire in stories its often because they found a family. If they just went wandering off thier enemies would probably attack loved ones to get back at them for old hurts.
So i contend that D&D would actually have very few high level people running around on either side. Making the low level mooks the ones who actually win or lose wars.
boredgremlin said:
In my campaign it's the mooks who win wars, yup - the "poor bloody infantry" will always have their place. That said, high level PCs _do_ get involved in wars and the GM needs to be able to handle them. They can be decisive when tasked with an important mission such as to find and kill the enemy BBEG during the battle (right before the battle can work with barbarians, not so good vs enemy with well-established lines of comman), or to capture or hold a particular strongpoint or chokepoint like a fortress or mountain pass.
I actually find that the best solution is to run big enough battles that high-level PCs just can't make a big enough impact to be the sole deciding factor. D&D PCs can win a battle where there's a only few thousand troops each side, but with 100,000 a side they can at most influence events.
Dragonblade
Adventurer
I take an entirely different and radical approach. I throw out the notion that most soldiers and peasants are 1st level warriors or commoners altogether.
I look at the skills and training that a modern Marine, or even National Guardsman have, and there is no way these guys would be level 1. This holds true even if you go back to Roman times. The average legionnaire has a number of skills and feats that make it unlikely for them to be level 1 characters.
Or if you think about commoners or experts, a blacksmith with even a couple years of experience is going to be above level 1.
In my world, a level 1 character is a young child. The average soldier in an army in my world is a level 8 to 10 fighter. With veteran soldiers at higher levels. Elite knights and paladins would be around level 20, or epic level for great champions.
I look at the skills and training that a modern Marine, or even National Guardsman have, and there is no way these guys would be level 1. This holds true even if you go back to Roman times. The average legionnaire has a number of skills and feats that make it unlikely for them to be level 1 characters.
Or if you think about commoners or experts, a blacksmith with even a couple years of experience is going to be above level 1.
In my world, a level 1 character is a young child. The average soldier in an army in my world is a level 8 to 10 fighter. With veteran soldiers at higher levels. Elite knights and paladins would be around level 20, or epic level for great champions.
8000 soldiers vs 1 lvl 20 party:
The 8000 soldiers' morale would break down like nobodies business; imagine this from the eyes of Bob Warrior Lvl 1:
The army is moving in in groups of 100 men against four people on a hill. Due to logistics and the fact that Bob is placed on the right flank he is far away from the lvl 20s. As he is ordered, with his friends, to do a flanking movement he sees the contact between the first line of warriors and the HLs. Light flashes and screams are heard as the warriors are exposed to high level magic. The cleric obliterates half a 100 man unit with a fire storm; the rest of the unit breaks down and runs as they lose 50% of their men in one attack (an extremely high loss in one attack). The fleeing warriors are running past the rest of the warriors which are made to go on due to the officers, despite the cloud of fire they saw with their own eyes. In a matter of seconds, though, the cleric and the wizard are throwing out area effect spells that kills dozens of warriors per hit; another 100 man group is breaking down. Now the lvl 20 Fighter bursts out like a Musashi on crack tearing apart men with greater cleave and haste. Everyone who tries to stand against him is instantly mowed down and no attacks seem to have an effect on him. Combined with the magical onslaught it will be enough for any warriors who are facing him to flee. With the amount of people who is now fleeing the rest of the army will flee as well. When they are running they are left at the mercy of the lvl 20s. The commander of the (former) 8000 warrior army will have to find his former army, take disciplinary measures and retrain a new bunch of soldiers if he wants the army back.
So in short, an 8000 man army with warriors lvl 1 and officers lvl 3-4 wouldnt do anything against lvl 20 characters.
The 8000 soldiers' morale would break down like nobodies business; imagine this from the eyes of Bob Warrior Lvl 1:
The army is moving in in groups of 100 men against four people on a hill. Due to logistics and the fact that Bob is placed on the right flank he is far away from the lvl 20s. As he is ordered, with his friends, to do a flanking movement he sees the contact between the first line of warriors and the HLs. Light flashes and screams are heard as the warriors are exposed to high level magic. The cleric obliterates half a 100 man unit with a fire storm; the rest of the unit breaks down and runs as they lose 50% of their men in one attack (an extremely high loss in one attack). The fleeing warriors are running past the rest of the warriors which are made to go on due to the officers, despite the cloud of fire they saw with their own eyes. In a matter of seconds, though, the cleric and the wizard are throwing out area effect spells that kills dozens of warriors per hit; another 100 man group is breaking down. Now the lvl 20 Fighter bursts out like a Musashi on crack tearing apart men with greater cleave and haste. Everyone who tries to stand against him is instantly mowed down and no attacks seem to have an effect on him. Combined with the magical onslaught it will be enough for any warriors who are facing him to flee. With the amount of people who is now fleeing the rest of the army will flee as well. When they are running they are left at the mercy of the lvl 20s. The commander of the (former) 8000 warrior army will have to find his former army, take disciplinary measures and retrain a new bunch of soldiers if he wants the army back.
So in short, an 8000 man army with warriors lvl 1 and officers lvl 3-4 wouldnt do anything against lvl 20 characters.
mattcolville
Adventurer
When Eden announced the Book of War, we started getting emails. A couple of dozen. There was one common theme. Players have vastly skewed notions of how powerful their characters are. I had one guy explain in great detail why a potion of flying made his 5th level character invincible on the battlefield, and how I better make sure the book modeled that.
I figure, if that's the way you look at your 5th level dude, if you really think he can or should be able to take on armies, D&D is not the game for you. Go play Exalted.
Wars are fought with armies. In spite of technology greater than any magic you'll find in the PHB (hey! We have nuclear weapons!), we still fight wars with troops. In spite of what Don Rumsfeld thinks, the joint chiefs will tell you; you want to fight a war; Veitnam, Iraq, Greyhawk, you need boots on the ground.
Sure, you got powerful magic. Heroes. What, the enemy doesn't?
I figure, if that's the way you look at your 5th level dude, if you really think he can or should be able to take on armies, D&D is not the game for you. Go play Exalted.
Wars are fought with armies. In spite of technology greater than any magic you'll find in the PHB (hey! We have nuclear weapons!), we still fight wars with troops. In spite of what Don Rumsfeld thinks, the joint chiefs will tell you; you want to fight a war; Veitnam, Iraq, Greyhawk, you need boots on the ground.
Sure, you got powerful magic. Heroes. What, the enemy doesn't?
Dragonblade
Adventurer
mmadsen said:
Actually, those side effects are fully intended.
I run a pretty high magic world.
The Shaman
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Quoted for truthery.mattcolville said:
Gawd bless all rankers.
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