D&D and war

[Coredump]

I think this aproch leads to the same problem as sending cavelry against tanks ( like the polish did against the Germans in WWII) .

As an aside... people keep mentioning this, but fail to mention that in the same war, with the same tanks, the Russian cavalry did *very* well. The difference was knowing *when* to attack, and *how* to use them. In this case, the russian cavalry was used when the wet winter made the tanks get bogged down in muck, so the horses had much more mobility.

1. Of course a high-level Wizard is more like an Apache or AT-10, but with far less limitation on 'home base' - best way to kill a wizard is CDG while they're asleep! A Wizard's well-defended tower equates to a well-guarded airfield, take that out and the Wizard has to sleep somewhere insecure, he becomes vulnerable.

You don't need to take it out, just do enough so the caster has to wake up occasionally. If he can't sleep, he can't memorize spells. And he has already spent his 'good' spells in the battle.

 

[Coredump]

Soviet infantry charges vs King Tigers looks a lot like the D&D paradigm to me, with a similar result - the infantry die in droves, but in the end the KTs have to retreat or be overrun and destroyed.

Again, The issue with the Tiger tanks (or blitzkrieg, or jets, or etc.) Is that not you can't fight them with infantry, or anything else, its that they had no time to adjust to the tactics needed.. The Zulu *could* have done much better against machine guns, if they had *ever* seen one before. It isn't just the technology that is the benefit, it is the **unknown** technology that offers such a surprise that really turns the tide.


Most DnD worlds are fairly static. You know about the enemy having magic users, and firestorms, and bad assed fighters, etc. Therefore you can prepare for them.

A 20th level firestorm has a max range of 300 feet. Even a short bow has double that range. A hundred of them may give the caster some pause.

A 20th level fighter has 200HP. When the horde of 150 mooks run at himi, he just smiles. Until about 50 'random' ones stop and start reading a scroll. 50d4+50 from magic missles will sure leave a mark. (He might have a shield spell, but then you might just feint a large attack, and back up, to work through all the buffs.)

20 draw up and cast dispell magic

One of the ones in front is actually a mid level Mage with anti magic field. he looks just like a mook, don't notice until all of the fighters magic stops working.

2-3 mid level mages cast greater dispell, let the mooks clean up, and move on to another group. (imagine losing all your magic for d4 rounds, while several hundred arrows are inbound)

The 20th level cleric casts firestorm on the 500 running at him, kills 50, the other 450 run and close half the distance, kill another 50.(how many 7th level spells?) 20 charge, 380 throw javelins. Next round they 'aid other' for a grapple check.

You spread out the attack. Send 100, wait, send 100, wait, etc. (or 50 etc.) make them waste spells.

You spread out the forces, make one per 20' square, in stead of 5'. Now the area spells aren't worth much, and the fighter has to move to attack. Once you get close, you can close on the spell casters. Or just keep peppering them with javelins.


There are more tacticly inclined people here than I am, They can think of even better ways of dealing with high level people. *especially* if they are often working with that army, so lots of info about thier methods and capabilities.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Um, I think it was earlier in this thread I pointed out the WW1 parrallel. "Okay lads, think of blighty! The folks back home are relying on you. Just one more push and we'll get 'em off the hill... "

Historicaly, it _is_ possible to march troops motivated by patriotic fervour into the jaws of death. Repeatedly. America experienced this in the Civil War, which made US commanders reluctant to do the same in WW1, but many 20th century armies spent soldiers like nobody's business.

http://www.counterpunch.org/lind11142003.html

"There are answers to that question, in the form of the "post-machine gun tactics" developed during and after World War I by a number of foreign armies. Those tactics are now readily available to Marine lieutenants and everyone else, through three superb books written by a former Marine Corps gunnery sergeant, H. John Poole."

 

[mmadsen]

Stormtroop Tactics

As VirgilCaine noted, Lind's Post-Machine Gun Tactics cites a few modern books by H. John Poole:

There are answers to that question, in the form of the "post-machine gun tactics" developed during and after World War I by a number of foreign armies. Those tactics are now readily available to Marine lieutenants and everyone else, through three superb books written by a former Marine Corps gunnery sergeant, H. John Poole.​

Bruce Gudmundsson's Stormtroop Tactics is all about how these tactics evolved within the WWI German military.

 

[mmadsen]

The Four Generations of Warfare

If we're going to ask how D&D magic would change ancient and medieval warfare, we should probably understand The Four Generations of [Modern] Warfare:

The First Generation ran from 1648 to about the time of the American Civil War, and it was characterized, on the whole, by a battlefield of order. The battlefield of order created a military culture of order, which endures to this day.
[...]
Second Generation war was developed by the French Army during and after World War I, and is best summed up with the French saying, "The artillery conquers, the infantry occupies." Also known as firepower/attrition warfare, Second Generation war maintained the First Generation culture of order.
[...]
Third Generation war, also known as maneuver warfare, was developed by the German Army in World War I; by 1918, Blitzkrieg was conceptually complete, lacking only the tanks necessary for operational mobility.​

 

[boredgremlin]

If you're so bored, gremlin, read your darn rulebook. All bonuses multiply in 3e _except_ bonus dice for sneak attack, energy damage etc. All the non-dice bonuses multiply.

I suspect this is a mistake because the SRD says its only weapon base damage. Since the revised 3.5 SRD came after the books they fixed a lot of mistakes in those books.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

In my world, a level 1 character is a young child. The average soldier in an army in my world is a level 8 to 10 fighter. With veteran soldiers at higher levels. Elite knights and paladins would be around level 20, or epic level for great champions.

Do you also buff up animals and monsters?
If you do not, then your average rank-and-file soldier is as much of a threat (CR-wise) as two hill giants or eight ogres. He'll be tougher than a grizzly bear or dire wolf.

 

[boredgremlin]

Also, read those demographics rules in the DMG one more time. This time, take note that they are in the "Campaigns" subsection on "World-Building" and that the tables provided are for RANDOM generation of information when you need that information quickly - that is, when you cannot or will not take the time to more carefully and consciously determine the information on your own. At every step where those rapid/random tables are provided there are also paragraphs of additional information intended to lead a DM who is in the process of building a campaign world towards making informed decisions rather than just making random determinations.

And the random tables provide a nice well thought out logical base for society. If you change it to make magic users and magic more common then have to ask why it changes some things in the game like war and the usefullness of castles, then i have to ask if you took the short bus to school. The game was clearly designed to be fairly magic low so that wizards dont dominate everything in the game.

If you want to go and screw with that to make people with classes and magic more common its your game. But that doesnt mean that your playing the way it was designed to run and you shouldnt be surprised if having magic around every corner screws up some of the traditional trappings of the game.

 

[DrZombie]

*Kill the mage.

Probably the first rule in magic warfare. So the mages won't be too happy to go to a battlefield.

 

[mmadsen]

*Kill the mage.

Probably the first rule in magic warfare. So the mages won't be too happy to go to a battlefield.

When you think about what used to happen to the guy with the flamethrower tank strapped on his back...